Help with setting up locuming at short notice

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 17:51:07 GMT

To be honest, he's a pretty good chef too!

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

listhestar — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 17:08:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]The benefit of being married to a non-practicing vet. Substitution is possible with a bit of paperwork. (Although he'd be gutted! )[/quote]

Well there has to be at least one advantage, right

lisa

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 02 Mar 2019 08:43:19 GMT

[quote user="listhestar"] My main issue when locuming was my right to subsitution. If I was unwell, my limited company should be able to provide a similar vet. [/quote]

The benefit of being married to a non-practicing vet. Substitution is possible with a bit of paperwork. (Although he'd be gutted! )

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

listhestar — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 22:05:11 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I was wondering about IR35 as it looks like vet locums could fall foul of this. How do the locums on here make sure that they don't get involved in this expense.[/quote]

IR35 is a little complex but there are companies that will assess whether you fall inside or outside of it. My main issue when locuming was my right to subsitution. If I was unwell, my limited company should be able to provide a similar vet. Most of my end clients wanted me, so to cover myself I would have needed to add this in to say my contract.

Have a read about the other parts that cover the IR35 legislation. I personally couldn't substitute and to a degree my hours of work were dictated by the practices. I chose to work inside IR35 which did limit alot of stuff. The rules around dividends have been tightened now as well. HMRC have been clamping down a bit and you can be investigated about it. As my accountant said to me 'depends on your attitude to risk'.

Ltd company - due to IR35, it wasn't really cost effective for me. Some tax breaks for pension payments etc.

I worked through an agency mainly - yes I lost some money but they chased payment and I got paid weekly regardless if they got paid or not! I used Quickbooks to raise all my invoices with my terms on it. I like a written list of terms as everyone knows where you stand there. Gentleman agreements are fine until someone doesn't pay a bill!

You can be self employed - some vets get twitchy about that because if you don't pay your taxes then technically HMRC can chase the employer for that liability. That said alot of my friends did fine that way.

I also worked under an umbrella firm for a bit. Effectively PAYE but a handling charge monthly for this.

Hope you get sorted out.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 08:48:44 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]There is a tax category that allows for this ('sub-contractor'), but it's only applicable to the building trade. My husband is in this category - he is self-employed, but has worked for the same employer (and no others) full-time for 10 years. He gets paid by them the same amount, every week into his bank account and doesn't submit invoices to them. Which is totally legal. We submit a tax return every year, and he pays his own NI. As far as I can see his employer gets a full-time employee, but the employee has no rights to things like paid holiday or sick leave (same as anyone else self-employed), and has the usual issues of the self-employed when trying to obtain mortgages, loans etc. despite the bank seeing a 'wage' being paid into the account every week. I would not be wishing this set-up on the veterinary profession![/quote]

About 10 years ago I went for a job interview, when it came to discussing salaries I discovered that all of the veterinary surgeons were employed as long term locums, I don't think I've ever made a quicker decision not to accept a job.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Wren — Fri, 01 Mar 2019 08:19:27 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]From what I understand, IR35 is designed to find businesses which are shirking National Insurance payments by effectively employing people for regular work, but not paying them as employees. If you undertake regular locum work, then having a signed contract stating you can be substituted by another vet seems to tick the box to prove you're not an employee by another name. [/quote]

There is a tax category that allows for this ('sub-contractor'), but it's only applicable to the building trade. My husband is in this category - he is self-employed, but has worked for the same employer (and no others) full-time for 10 years. He gets paid by them the same amount, every week into his bank account and doesn't submit invoices to them. Which is totally legal. We submit a tax return every year, and he pays his own NI. As far as I can see his employer gets a full-time employee, but the employee has no rights to things like paid holiday or sick leave (same as anyone else self-employed), and has the usual issues of the self-employed when trying to obtain mortgages, loans etc. despite the bank seeing a 'wage' being paid into the account every week. I would not be wishing this set-up on the veterinary profession!

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 20:05:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Yes, this used to be a rumoured problem and, for the "employer", could be expensive as the employer had to prove somehow that the 2 year "locum", usually gone back down-under was not just an ordinary employee![/quote]

Not just a rumour. I know a practice that paid a 'self-employed' vet who worked for them for many years. Eventually cost them in excess of £20k.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Rob Loxley — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:33:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]IRS attitudes[/quote] I'm not sure the IRS are that interested in the UK

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Anthony Todd — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:56:18 GMT

Yes, this used to be a rumoured problem and, for the "employer", could be expensive as the employer had to prove somehow that the 2 year "locum", usually gone back down-under was not just an ordinary employee!

Worth clarifying currently! Laws and IRS attitudes may have hardened!

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Liz Barton — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 17:55:07 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I was wondering about IR35 as it looks like vet locums could fall foul of this. How do the locums on here make sure that they don't get involved in this expense.[/quote]

From what I understand, IR35 is designed to find businesses which are shirking National Insurance payments by effectively employing people for regular work, but not paying them as employees. If you undertake regular locum work, then having a signed contract stating you can be substituted by another vet seems to tick the box to prove you're not an employee by another name. If you undertake a variety of locum work with variable hours in different practices you don't have to worry.

Regarding VDS, the fees certainly seem steep, but break it down (£11 per week) and it's not so bad. Far less than our medic friends have to pay! If you stop locum work at any point, you can cancel and will be refunded for the rest of the year with no admin charge.

Be aware, some corporates won't pay your bill unless you're a Ltd. company so check this prior to working for them.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

An On MRCVS — Thu, 21 Feb 2019 18:46:52 GMT

Thank you for the webinar link - it was useful though wrong with somethings. You do NOT need an accountant. Also they very much underestimated the VDS costs - I called VDS today and the cost is about £500 for cover for the remainder of the year.

I was wondering about IR35 as it looks like vet locums could fall foul of this. How do the locums on here make sure that they don't get involved in this expense.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Silvia Maldonado — Sun, 17 Feb 2019 23:07:35 GMT

Hi, Anon,

Have a watch at this webinar, it's very good explaining your options regarding umbrella companies, LTD, or self-employment, pros and cons of each, and some tips. It's free though you still need to click on "buy" for £0

Everything you need to know about being a locum vet

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Camilla Edwards — Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:27:08 GMT

Hi Anon,

Lots of good advice here, but if you want to see a generic terms of business - I'm happy to share mine. Just PM me and I can email it to you.

Camilla

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:42:08 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]- is an agency the same as an umbrella company?[/quote]

An agency is a dating agency, simple as that

An umbrella Company will pay you a salary in exchange for all your locum fees , avoid!! Some locum agencies seem to have links with umbrella companies, so they link the two with inexperienced locums

VAT is no longer flat rate, so the advantages have gone. As you are unlikely to go above the threshold of £65000/annum (unless you work for CVS ) you don't need to register. I think it saves me about £250/year. For the hassle is it worth it?

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I didn't think that setting up and running a Ltd company was that much work. My OH has one for his work (unrelated to vet) and he doesn't do too much paperwork except twice a year, leaving it to 30 minutes to midnight [/quote]

You still have to PAYE yourself. I keep meticulous records, annotating all bank statements and filling in spreadsheets. Takes at least 1-2 hours a week for accounting. Either my accountant loves me or I'm being daft, advise needed there then

Neil

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

An On MRCVS — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:33:56 GMT

Thank you for all the helpful advice, everyone. By the way, it is not all corporates' circling the plug hole; I am being made redundant from an independent practice.

Sorry, some rookie questions again -

- is an agency the same as an umbrella company? Can you provide examples of each please?

- I don't understand the comment about VAT registration - can someone explain?

I didn't think that setting up and running a Ltd company was that much work. My OH has one for his work (unrelated to vet) and he doesn't do too much paperwork except twice a year, leaving it to 30 minutes to midnight

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Julie Innes — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:51:31 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Julie, I believe you mean "familiar" rather than, "regular"![/quote]

Oops

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Clive Ansell — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 15:46:49 GMT

Other thing I would add:

Do not be over generous with a practice owners money; don't order in drugs that are expensive and will not get used unless you have too, and don't agree to give credit or to direct insurance claims unless authorised to do so.

Don't take on complex elective medical or surgical cases unless able to see them through.

Make comprehensive notes

Obey the rules with regard to the RCVS code of conduct, and the cascade.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Clive Ansell — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:11:18 GMT

Agree with all of the above.

A slightly laid back and flexible approach helps.

I've never had any issues finding work. Contact local practices by letter or email, all of 6 regular practices near home were via direct contact or word of mouth.

Agencies are useful for filling extra weeks, or when you're starting out. Choose ones which act as an introductory agent only, not ones that "employ" you and take a %.

Ok to work self employed, ltd co or PAYE. I was advised by my accountant that if anywhere for more than about 6 weeks, HMRC will argue you should be PAYE. Similarly if working regular part time, every other Saturday for example. I wouldn't bother being Ltd Co unless earning a lot, a lot of hassle and to me not worth it (Although need to be Ltd co if working for CVS). Similarly, the flat rate VAT scheme is no longer worth it either.

I don't have any form of formal contract or agreement, just rely on emails that I keep, and had very few issues. Oddly, the only major problem I have had was with one of the franchise outlets where I signed their contract, and they then went on to actually breach their own T&C's.

Most practice have VDS cover which will cover you in the event of negligence related to work done when you were there, even if the claim is put in later. It will not cover you in the event of a later RCVS complaint though, and you need your own VDS for that.

As other have said; keep your nose down, do your work, don't interfere or try to change things. If a practice wants to discuss anything or wants your opinion, they will ask you.

I only ever intended to locum for 2-3 years after being made redundant in 2001, while I did some travelling and mountaineering. Still at it 18 years later, no regrets whatsoever.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 11:15:17 GMT

I just emailed local practices and have had more work offers than I can accept. However, I am fortunate that I don't want full time work. If I did, I would probably have gone to an agency to guarantee work. Filling every week could be difficult, depending on how population dense your area is.

Setting up a Ltd company was straightforward, but, as has been said, you have to ensure your book keeping is spot on. Sone practices won't take self employed locums due to tax liability issues.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Bob Russell — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 10:48:39 GMT

Just be flexible and non-judgemental. Things may not be perfect in a practice or may just not be your version of perfect!

I think 'work hard' is an undervalued suggestion. A practice may take quite a hit when any locum is at the reins, not your fault of course.

If a practice is so bad that you think it compromises your ethics then get out but preferably with a bit of notice so someone else can be engaged.

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 10:44:30 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Be aware that if you are registered with an agency, even if you find work off your own back the practice pays the agency fees[/quote]

Some have this in place for up to a year, so if you are placed, any work offered by the practice within that year means a payment to the agency.

Neil

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 10:42:23 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Keep your head down, work hard, do whatever is asked, don't get involved in gossip or politics, observe protocols and ways of working, don't piss off clients, don't try and change anything at all. Don't boast to regular staff how much you are making.

Remember why you are there, as a locum because they can't get cover any other way. You are there to plug a gap not as a guest vet discharging their wisdom and beneficence for the future good of the practice.

[/quote]

Gold Dust

Every Locum, should paste this to their sun visor in their car

Remember you are parachuted into a team, there may be cracks that you can see, but DO NOT interfere, comment on any of it. As the penguins in Madagascar say 'Smile and Wave'

Neil

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Iain Richards — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 10:34:06 GMT

Julie, I believe you mean "familiar" rather than, "regular"!

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Julie Innes — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:03:17 GMT

Personally I prefer locums who approach the practice directly, either with a friendly letter or an e-mail. I value "regular" locums, so people who do various stints for us, get to know the practice and staff relatively well. I feel agencies send me details all of the time of faceless locums, and that plus the added fees for going through them, means I will only use an agency locum if desperate! Be aware that if you are registered with an agency, even if you find work off your own back the practice pays the agency fees

RE: Help with setting up locuming at short notice

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:50:09 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[/quote]

I have never worked as a locum, but have worked with a number of locums over the years, and the above I think is good advice.

[quote user="David Mills"]Remember why you are there, as a locum because they can't get cover any other way. You are there to plug a gap not as a guest vet discharging their wisdom and beneficence for the future good of the practice. [/quote]

But to this I would add that I have worked with some very good locums, and have had discussions with them about case management and protocols that have improved the way we work.