Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

salome2001 — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 00:33:26 GMT

BTW- an earlier post mentioned that VDS are offering a reduced rate this year for part time vets (must have decided we're NOT such an increased risk after all!**). However, you have to work 15 hours or less a week. I'm wondering if this is actually so generous then, given that the minimum hours you need to work to get working tax credits is 16 hours a week, and that this equates to less than 2 working days a week.

** how many Saturday vets actually ever wield a scalpel? When you are only ever consulting (booster-booster-booster-booster-scratching-booster) your risk of professional incompetance must surely be less than someone getting out the practice meccano set or undertaking a heroic GDV op.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

salome2001 — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:55:19 GMT

good luck pip with getting someone, your job offer sounds great but we're not in the area :(

I would absolutely love to have a permanent PT job, to have CPD funded again, to know that all my H&S rights are certain and I don't have to worry what this week's practice does, to not have to pay VDS, to know that I'll still be in the same job in two months, to be able to book days at nursery on a set basis... as you rightly say, vetmums and vetdads are going to be a lot more stable in the long run as we're usually pretty settled somewhere and have a vested interest in making the position work out

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

pip McLachlan — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:29:36 GMT

I am a partner in a small practice in Hertfordshire, we have been hit by a pregnancy bug over the past 2 years and as a result have now gone from 3 full time qualified VNs to 1 full time and 4 part time vns all with young children and managing well with work/hours/coping with child illness etc - I think the key to this is our being prepared to be understanding and flexible with working hours and arrangements.

My partner has 2 older children and I am about to have my first ... as a consequence we are now looking for a vet to job share with me working 2 days a week. We are more than happy to consider a vet returning to work after having had a break for family - we actively encourage CPD and have arranged the working day to ensure that there is support for surgical cases/medical workup/imaging although our vet will be required to be alone during evening surgery hours. We have had a big issue with finding an applicant as most of those applying are seeking a long term locum position and are therefore demanding a daily rate unsustainable to a small practice and are unable to see the benefits we have to offer with flexibility and stability ... both for us and the employee. In our minds someone with a family now considering return to work is far more likely to stay with a supportive practice for a period of time than a person most interested in daily rate of pay and with no roots in the area.

Many of the recruitment agencies we have phoned have identified that there is a gap in the applicant market for vets talking to them about part-time work. Maybe this is in part due to a lack of confidence in abilities and drive to sell oneself having had a break from the profession. Sure things move on and things change a little, but support from a practice and CPD can fill gaps in knowledge ... being a compassionate, enthusiastic vet doesn't change. Many of my friends that have returned to practice full time find that their time spent in practice is now more fulfilling as they manage to maintain perspective and a work-life balance - something as full time vets we are bad at doing.

So ... if anyone is interested in working in Stanstead Abbotts (nr Ware) in Hertfordshire do get in touch with me. Everyone else maybe it is worth contacting some of the recruitment agencies - vet recruitment services and synergy vets have been very helpful with our search.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

salome2001 — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:38:06 GMT

Gillian, I have never suggested that more reasonable hours means working no evenings and making the other vets in the practice cover them, I have no idea where that presupposition came from.

I don't accept that one vet has to see an animal in and out. Most practices I've worked in have nurses admit day surgeries, and many have nurses discharge them, so where the vet is at the time is completely irrelevant.

What I disagree with is that a vet's shift has to be so long that it is not possible to either drop off or collect a child from childcare. Given that most nurseries open from 8am to 6pm, this means a ridiculously long day for the parent- and also for the child.

On another note,

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Try the opposite of what Gillian suggested, and contact local single-handed practitioners. Either a young veterinarian who has recently bought a practice, and is at the stage when there is too much work for 1, and not enough money for 2, or a senior veterinary surgeon who is winding down, and would like a regular afternoon off, might be glad of you

[/quote]

This is exactly the situation of the last 2 places I have been working (2 days a week): single vet practices with a principal who wants to either spend more time with family or have time off for non-clinical duties. Interestingly, both practitioners work 9.30 to 6.30, refer OOH to dedicated OOH clinics, and only open on Saturday mornings: much more "work-life balance" friendly.

I drop my son at nursery in the morning, and my husband picks him up in the evening: fortunately he is a primary school teacher so usually finishes by 5pm, and if staff meetings go overtime, it's not heretical to say "I have to collect my son from nursery" and leave. I know I'm fortunate in this and I dread to think how we'd cope if he also had long or irregular hours (like the earlier poster whose husband was a contractor and worked away a lot). We have no family in this country to fall back on (and why should it be expected that granny will pick up the slack anyway?). it's working, for now, though getting home just in time to kiss my toddler goodnight is pretty unrewarding parenting.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:18:17 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Try the opposite of what Gillian suggested, and contact local single-handed practitioners.[/quote]

I was talking in that post about those trying to get into full-time work but without antisocial hours - and in that case a big practice is going to be the only real option.

I would agree completely that if you want part-time work, a small practice would be more likely to accommodate you. As I have said early in the thread, a couple of years ago me and my husband were desperate for a part-time vet to help us - any hours worked would have been fine - but no one applied!

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:49:03 GMT

it works for us and i accept that everyone is different and has different priorities. i generally work 2 or 3 nights a week so i have plenty of time with Oliver, we have swimming lessons every Friday and i have a gang of friends all with kids around the same age so we often meet up for various activites (thankfully too old now for rattle and roll!). We all built a "snow horse"on tuesday before i went to work! i used the word "juggle" not stress. No i don't find it stressful but i'm also not going to pretend that it is always easy - just trying to be honest - i'm all for mums getting back to work if they are keen to. i can see that it might be daunting,but i think there are a few different options out there.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:51:41 GMT

I worked 1 afternoon in this practice when the principal was golfing. After my father died, he offered me the chance to buy him out, as he wanted to retire

In both cases you would need to be confident in sole charge

Wynne

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Vicki Mason — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:25:37 GMT

[quote user="CAGOODEAR"]the full night shifts are 6pm until 9am - so my husband drops my son at nursery on his way to work and i go home and sleep. SOme of the clinics have 6pm until 12am shifts and then weekend day shifts which might suit better.[/quote]

And when do you get to see your son and spend time with him? Is the stress of all this pick up and drop off and tight scheduling worth it?

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Vicki Mason — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:19:54 GMT

[quote user="Helen Bond"]

I took a lot longer than seven years out of practice because I wanted to enjoy bringing up my own children, and have no regrets. Going back was not easy, but when the last child went to school, I saw practice on a voluntary basis, mornings only, for about a year, and immersed myself in sytematic study and revision from modern textbooks from the RCVS library, - then went on a Refresher Course (Which could now be covered by routine CPD meetings, especially the free ones sponsored by drug companies). The Seeing Practice was probably the most beneficial in giving me confidence, getting back into the routine, and to practise basic skills like catheter placement, cat spays and castrates etc.

When you feel confident, go for it! Contact all the local vets; go and see them; let them see your enthusiasm - it is surprising how many are glad of local part time vets that they can call on. There is life after children, and you can still enjoy your profession!

[/quote]

Thank you for your post - this is one of the most positive messages that I have read thus far and actually made me smile! I have been out of practice now for 3 years and panicking about what to do career-wise when my tiddlies are big enough to either start school or at least be in nursery (without me feeling like a cruel mum for ditching them in day care!)

The thought of returning full time when my first baby was just 6 months old made me cry, and I realised quickly that I couldn't leave him in nursery full-time and unless work would offer me part time, I would have to leave. I was very blessed in that we had just bought a house and my husband earned significantly more than I did anyway, so we had the option of me staying home to raise the baby.

Now with my third on the way, I am very conscious of the length of time that I've been away from it all and how on earth will I ever get back into the work force, and will I ever return to practice? I am wondering now about alternative options (vet related) such as post-grad qualifications that will perhaps be conducive to securing a more family-friendly office job or work-from-home type job. Is there anyone out there that has done anything along these lines in the veterinary industry?

When I very first graduated I worked for the government assessing data packages and making recommendations for licensing veterinary products/drugs. This was a low stress job and the pay was brilliant for a new grad, approx $15,000 more than my contemporaries in clinical practice were getting! So I am bearing this in mind as a future option, too (though it's arguably not very exciting!!!!)

There doesn't seem to be much information out there regarding career opportunities for people with vet degrees...

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:11:49 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]Gillian, if you want us to be a "service" profession, opening early and late to be convenient for our clients, then I don't actually see how that differs from a Sainsburys supermarket. [/quote]

Because you don't care who serves you on the till in the evening, or whether it is the same person who stocked the shelves that morning.

[quote user="salome2001"]so why could the consultation hours not be able to be covered by overlapping shifts? Don't most practices do this for their nurses, working "earlys" or "lates"? Why should the vets not expect the same?[/quote]

So you are basically saying you want to work less evenings? I don't know how many you currently work but my point is that if you only have 3 vets in the practice, and one wants to finish earlier - the others will need to do them instead. It is irrelevant whether you started work at 8.30am or 11am!

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Vicki Mason — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:02:19 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]It would be interesting to hear on this from any vets who've worked in Australia recently, where they have a union, an industrial "accord" and a 40-hour week... (all of which was only in the planning stages when I last worked there). [/quote]

Admittedly it's been 6 years since I last worked in Australia, but I spent most of my time there in Melbourne. At that stage there were (from memory) FOUR dedicated out of hours facilities. Some of these were run by boards of directors which consisted of practice owners in Melbourne; thus everyone had a vested interest in using the out-of-hours clinics and there were (I believe) very strict rules ensuring continuity of care and return of clients to their own vets after treatment. I worked for one practice that did their own out of hours care only because they were 50 km from the nearest OOH facility.

Once I moved closer to the city, all the jobs on offer had no OOH, and usually a 40 hour week or sometimes less. I must admit I thoroughly enjoyed not having to do OOH and it was a shock to the system coming to the UK and having to do a 57 hr week on average, on call, and 48 hour weekends! One boxing day I got 36 calls in 24 hours. Absolute madness, and I was a wreck at the end of it.

In a city the size of London, I fail to see why a similar system can't be set up to deal with the highly stressful problem of OOH care. The NHS manage to do it... why can't vets? Surely we are professional enough to be able to copy the Melbourne system and conquer this ridiculous fear of losing your clients to other vets!

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

sarah mason — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 05:51:47 GMT

We used to have overlapping shifts-8am-7pm for the "early" vet, and 8.30am-8.30pm for the "late" vet

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

salome2001 — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:33:03 GMT

Gillian, if you want us to be a "service" profession, opening early and late to be convenient for our clients, then I don't actually see how that differs from a Sainsburys supermarket. And many healthcare professionals DO work "normal" hours: or at least normal length shifts that would allow them to drop off or collect their child from childcare.

Your example assumes a multivet practice ("to allow someone to do less or no evenings would inevitably lead to the other vets doing more than their fair share - and the other vets being unhappy") so why could the consultation hours not be able to be covered by overlapping shifts? Don't most practices do this for their nurses, working "earlys" or "lates"? Why should the vets not expect the same?

I remain to be convinced that it's not just because "it's always been this way" and that vets are not a sufficiently militant / unionised bunch to make a stand.

It would be interesting to hear on this from any vets who've worked in Australia recently, where they have a union, an industrial "accord" and a 40-hour week... (all of which was only in the planning stages when I last worked there).

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Helen Bond — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:04:22 GMT

Be encouraged. I am sure your veterinary career is not over for good. I think it is important to keep your interest up; read Vet Times and In Practice to keep up to date. I took a lot longer than seven years out of practice because I wanted to enjoy bringing up my own children, and have no regrets. Going back was not easy, but when the last child went to school, I saw practice on a voluntary basis, mornings only, for about a year, and immersed myself in sytematic study and revision from modern textbooks from the RCVS library, - then went on a Refresher Course (Which could now be covered by routine CPD meetings, especially the free ones sponsored by drug companies). The Seeing Practice was probably the most beneficial in giving me confidence, getting back into the routine, and to practise basic skills like catheter placement, cat spays and castrates etc.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 08:28:35 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]No, many professions would allow you to be flexible in your hours to accomodate this.[/quote]

I'm sure they do. But i'd bet it is equally hard to get a rigid 8 hour day without any evenings as a doctor or nurse too. In the healthcare field you have to accept some unsociable hours.

[quote user="salome2001"] No one at Sainsburys starts at 7 when the store opens and works through to 10pm when it closes.[/quote]

Hardly a comparable profession.

[quote user="salome2001"]Veterinary practice doesn't because most practices are beholden to the long days mentality that says if we open for consults early and consult late into the evening then ONE vet has to do all of it.[/quote]

That is the opposite of what I said. We have to consult early and late - we wouldn't have a business to work in if we didn't provide that service. And I don't suppose it does have to be the same vet - although for patient care it is beneficial. And as an assistant I would rather have worked four 10hour days and have a guaranteed day off - early finishes rarely happened - it is hard to leave the building when it is busy. But what I was saying is that to allow someone to do less or no evenings would inevitably lead to the other vets doing more than their fair share - and the other vets being unhappy. Hence why the workload has to be shared. I guess very large practices may be able to offer different shifts but small ones couldn't.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

salome2001 — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 23:01:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I'd have thought that unless he could get more flexibility at work so that he could then help with these tasks then it is unlikely you'd be able to find a job to suit you no matter what your profession was[/quote]

No, many professions would allow you to be flexible in your hours to accomodate this. Veterinary practice doesn't because most practices are beholden to the long days mentality that says if we open for consults early and consult late into the evening then ONE vet has to do all of it. My question is WHY? Why shouldn't vets work an 8-hour day like everyone else? No one at Sainsburys starts at 7 when the store opens and works through to 10pm when it closes.

And it is precisely this inflexibility that makes combining family responsibilities (to a younger or -as mentioned earlier- older generation so hard

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Anonymous — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:03:55 GMT

hi,

the full night shifts are 6pm until 9am - so my husband drops my son at nursery on his way to work and i go home and sleep. SOme of the clinics have 6pm until 12am shifts and then weekend day shifts which might suit better.

i agree with Gillian though - i couldn't work if my other half couldn't help with childcare/dropping off /picking up/illness!

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:13:53 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]My DH has to be at work at 8, so needs to leave at 7- I'd have to be home by then and get kids up, off to school, nursery etc....[/quote]

From what you have said, it seems that your DH's job is fairly inflexible if you are the one sorting out all the school runs, child illness days etc. I'd have thought that unless he could get more flexibility at work so that he could then help with these tasks then it is unlikely you'd be able to find a job to suit you no matter what your profession was. Speaking personally, I would have thought that if both partners work, then both have to be able to split the childcare, even if it is just a couple of pick-ups a week. I can't see it working long term otherwise. But maybe some people do manage it?????

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:08:00 GMT

Vets-Now night shifts are typically 1800 - 0900, a 15 hour shift, although I think they now split them in the busier clinics, but I'm not 100% sure. In the quieter clinics or if your lucky in the busy ones you may get to bed for a few hours, but not always. Their rates, for locums at least, are not terribly good though, last time I looked they were offering £200 for a 15 hour night shift.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Jacquin Mitchell — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:49:31 GMT

[quote user="CAGOODEAR"]working nights for Vetsnow means that Oliver (my son) only needs to go to nursery 2 days a week[/quote]

How does that work? There is a vetsnow near us and I was tentatively looking at enquiring for work there but can't see how I could do it. If I worked nights, I would need to sleep days so the kids would need to go to nursery- also what time do you finish in the morning? My DH has to be at work at 8, so needs to leave at 7- I'd have to be home by then and get kids up, off to school, nursery etc....

Jacq

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Anonymous — Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:40:12 GMT

HI,

first post on this site! i am a working Mum and my husband is also a vet working in general practice. I work for Vetsnow (started before i had my son) and although everything is a bit of a juggle (isn't that always the case with children, dogs etc...!) i manage to work full time (40hrs a week) and my husband runs his own practice. working nights for Vetsnow means that Oliver (my son) only needs to go to nursery 2 days a week which he seems to really enjoy and i find i get a good work/life balance and plenty of time with Oliver during the day to do all the "kiddie" things like swimming. the compromise is that my husband and i don't get many weekends off together - as 1 of us is working.

Vetsnow offer all sorts of different contracts so part time work is definitely an option (although you have to accept that even part time will involve a fair bit of weekend work) and there is a really good CPD programme "in house" which would help those coming back into practice after a break. Some of the busier clinics double up with vets so at my clinic all "new" vets starting work alongside other vets for their first shifts until they feel confident to go "sole charge"

Good luck everyone wanting to get back into practice - go for it!

claire

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:04:11 GMT

I don't have children, but at one time was working part-time whilst caring for elderly parents (not that different ) I phoned around practices within commuting range, until I had enough part-time work

Wynne

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:56:34 GMT

[quote user="Tim Mainland"]ps Arlo, I pick up most emails now via Blackberry. It appears to offer the opportunity to reply within the Vetsurgeon text to these postings. It seems it doesnt work! With more & more people using i-phones, blackberries, and other smartphones, you may like to look into the site's mobile functionality. It may be more than just my insignificant single posting which has not worked? It may also be that you are well aware of this already. If so, my apologies. Tim[/quote]

Hi Tim,
You can reply to vetsurgeon forum posts on a mobile Internet browser (i.e. using an iphone, I click on the link in the email, and it opens the forum page in the built in browser, which I can then reply to). I'm not sure whether the Blackberry has a browser.

There is an additional feature on this site whereby we can allow people to reply to a forum post by email (which is what you seem to be talking about). With these sorts of things, I just have to weigh up whether the site is busy enough / generating enough revenue to justify additional investment (and email replying to forum posts is only one of a number of features I'm thinking about).

Good news is that things are really starting to look good on that score, and I think we'll be able to start doing things in the New Year.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:40:49 GMT

[quote user="Allie Woodward"]Actually there is an online (free) vet times jobs database. Did not want to post it unless Arlo gives the go ahead. [/quote]

That's not quite true! Vet Times charges an additional £10 for jobs advertised on its website (www.vetsonline.com) in addition to the magazine.

Re: Female vets getting back into practice after children?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:25:46 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]Just as an aside that will please Arlo- i just got a 2 day a week job to start ion the new year- from an ad on vetsurgeon! So keep advertising HERE folks..[/quote]

You're right - dead pleased to hear that. Thanks for telling me