Green cars

RE: Green cars

George Cooper — Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:11:24 GMT

Hey, man, dontcha jes' dig that music? Far out!

RE: Green cars

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:30:29 GMT

There's a nice green car at 0.48:

www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 18:16:03 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]There was a report on Radio 4 recently about the number of plug-in hybrid cars being used as company cars because of the tax incentive, but they don't achieve the reduction in CO2 envisaged as they are never plugged in, apparently a large number of them still have the charging cable sealed in its bag in the boot of the car when they go off lease. [/quote]

The friend I mentioned takes the environmental impact of his car seriously, and will charge it when he can. The problems he has are; lack of available charge points, most hospitals he visits as a rep don't have enough, they're not working, or are blocked by parked cars. If he recharges at home he doesn't get reimbursed for the electricity, whereas all off his petrol is paid for by his company. His driving is almost all motorway, and given the electric range is only 30-40 miles, and the petrol engine cuts in at >50mph it is running on petrol almost all of the time.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:55:34 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]A quote I remember is that we spend more on ringtones every year than research into this tech! Ever BOUGHT a ringtone for your phone???[/quote]

No, never.

Therein lies the problem. That has to be the political will to do it, along with investment in R&D and infrastructure. Most politicians, certainly here and the US under Mr Trump seem only interested in short term financial gain for themselves and their cronies.

A few companies producing prohibitively expensive hightech electric cars, available only to the wealthy, isn't going to solve the issues.

RE: Green cars

Robert FalconerTaylor — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:38:59 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]

Surely if you're using electric/hybrid cars, it only makes environmental sense if you're using electricity generated by green methods? In my simplistic knowledge of physics, if you're burning fossil fuels to create electricity which then has to be stored, transported to and inserted into your car battery, then you have more steps for energy loss. I'm presuming power plants are much more efficient at combustion than a typical vehicle engine, but even so, what is the actual bottom line of environmental benefit if green energy isn't harnessed for the electricity?

[/quote]

Brian Cox did a program on this a while ago, compared green vs. coal vs. fusion/fision. the numbers are staggering, as you say, and explains why green tech as we know will not solve the problem. He also discussed the moral problem of the west, having enjoyed using fossil fuels, now expect 3rd World to forego their 'turn'. He said we have to find a way for the whole consumer+++ planet to enjoy >>energy and green will never do that, I think the program was how to create a star - about fision tech. A quote I remember is that we spend more on ringtones every year than research into this tech! Ever BOUGHT a ringtone for your phone???

RE: Green cars

Bob Russell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:22:45 GMT

With the Renaut Zoe you have to lease the battery at £50 a month. It is a consumable and hideously expensive to replace so the risk is worked out by Renaut and priced accordingly.

My car costs £70-80 a month in diesel so really not worth the effort to have a 100% electric car even if the electricity is free. My wife has a little Vauxhall tin can that gets filled up every six weeks and costs £50 odd. Not sure why my brother decided to go 100% electric.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:08:16 GMT

I think with Jaguar iPace one buys the car but leases the batteries, because given it is so new their life span and possibly replacement cost (£1000s) is currently unknown. The owner is therefore not responsible for cost of replacement. At the talk I went too, the guy was saying they should be good for 10 years, but that it is unproven at this point. Emerging technology still.

RE: Green cars

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:19:25 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I seem to remember reading that one car maker, Renault maybe?, had a scheme where if you bought an electric or hybrid from them and wanted to do the occasional long journey for a family holiday etc, you could hire a conventional car from them at a preferential rate, and leave yours parked up. [/quote]

Nissan Leaf

A friend looked into this, they encouraged to lease rather than buy as technology moving on quickly

Neil

RE: Green cars

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 15:02:21 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]The friend I mentioned in the other thread is a rep for Smith and Nephew. He drives long distances mainly on motorways and A roads up and down the country. As they get new cars ever 2 years or so, they are replaced with hybrid BMW petrol models. He likes it as he gets a good tax incentive and it is a nice car, but it consumes far more fuel and pumps out far more co2 than his previous BMW diesel did. It is the wrong tool for the job in hand, as almost all of the time it is in petrol mode. It would be fine for short distance, slow, stop/start or city driving. [/quote]

There was a report on Radio 4 recently about the number of plug-in hybrid cars being used as company cars because of the tax incentive, but they don't achieve the reduction in CO2 envisaged as they are never plugged in, apparently a large number of them still have the charging cable sealed in its bag in the boot of the car when they go off lease.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:42:26 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Nice car by the way, and a snip at £75-£80K with a range of around 300 miles (less in cold conditions) - wouldn't even get me to Scotland![/quote]

I seem to remember reading that one car maker, Renault maybe?, had a scheme where if you bought an electric or hybrid from them and wanted to do the occasional long journey for a family holiday etc, you could hire a conventional car from them at a preferential rate, and leave yours parked up.

RE: Green cars

Richard Carter — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:41:26 GMT

pity then that the electric trolley busses and trams from the 50-70's got 'modernised'. I can still remember the lovely sparks from the busses crossing intersections. Still - there is time to re-introduce all that live electricity cabling above the roads before 2040 (have they actually started HS2 yet?)

What happened to the 'burn your rubbish as power' idea that Germany (and others) do so well?

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 14:30:32 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Roll on 2040 eh? After all, when petrol and diesel engines are banned[/quote]

I think most folk would agree with the need to reduce pollution of any sort, despite its source.

A step in the right direction, but it only applies to cars. It will not apply to commercial vehicles that burn most of the fuel and produce the most emissions and pollutants.

Will it actually happen by then? who knows ? the technology with hybrid and electric is not where it needs to be yet. I recently went to a talk given by one of the development team that designed the Jaguar iPace electric car - he thought the technology and issues over batter life, production and disposal were far from answered and had his doubts about a 2040 deadline. Nice car by the way, and a snip at £75-£80K with a range of around 300 miles (less in cold conditions) - wouldn't even get me to Scotland!

Also, don't forget massive amounts of money are made from the oil industry, so it ain't goin away anytime soon.

RE: Green cars

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:32:47 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Removing diesel engines from towns is about removing pollution, primarily particulate matter, from our air. It does kill an awful lot of people.[/quote]

Not to mention the damage it does to childrens' lungs. I'm so glad we decided to move to the countryside before my children were born (although lung damage is probably the least of my eldest child's concerns): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5976105/

RE: Green cars

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:28:52 GMT

https://www.alphr.com/environment/1007053/pollution-diesel-cars-deaths-UK

An interesting article comparing diesel and petrol cars.

Roll on 2040 eh? After all, when petrol and diesel engines are banned, the efficiency of electric cars (or, more accurately their batteries) will improve as the money will be there for their development.

RE: Green cars

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:12:45 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Electric trams and buses are good, but given around 50% of electricity is still from fossil fuel how beneficial actually is it? [/quote]

But there are 2 different things here.

Removing diesel engines from towns is about removing pollution, primarily particulate matter, from our air. It does kill an awful lot of people.

Changing power stations to renewable energy is certainly about reducing our reliance on fossil fuels and reversing climate change. I'm afraid I'm less optimistic about our future with this one. While fossil fuels are profitable, they will continue to be used. The world's governments have to collectively agree to make them less profitable That will immediately redirect the energy companies' billions of R+D money into renewable energy. But it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 11:22:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Yes, but most (>95%) diesel that is used is in lorries, buses, trains. How much difference would eradicating diesel cars actually make? [/quote]

Just because something has only a small impact doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile!

And with the trams and electric buses in Greater Manchester, things are moving in the right direction up here.

[/quote]

True enough, I just don't think the diesel car is the baddie it is made out to be.

Electric trams and buses are good, but given around 50% of electricity is still from fossil fuel how beneficial actually is it?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I assume that was what the scrappage scheme was for? As far as I know, it was successful....there really don't seem to be as many knackered old cars on the road as there used to be?[/quote]

True, and acquiring a new car is now easy with good finance deals and the being relatively cheaper.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 11:16:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I have had so many electrical faults with my Skoda Yeti that I would never touch one again. [/quote]

My Audi A3 diesel developed its first electrical fault last week; 7 years and nearly 100000 miles it blew its first bulb ever, b****y junk - think I should take it back! . They seem to know how to build cars.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]may consider a hybrid when it comes out next year.[/quote]

I've looked at them, and other than a premium price tag the range on electric isn't enough.

The friend I mentioned in the other thread is a rep for Smith and Nephew. He drives long distances mainly on motorways and A roads up and down the country. As they get new cars ever 2 years or so, they are replaced with hybrid BMW petrol models. He likes it as he gets a good tax incentive and it is a nice car, but it consumes far more fuel and pumps out far more co2 than his previous BMW diesel did. It is the wrong tool for the job in hand, as almost all of the time it is in petrol mode. It would be fine for short distance, slow, stop/start or city driving.

RE: Green cars

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 11:07:28 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Yes, but most (>95%) diesel that is used is in lorries, buses, trains. How much difference would eradicating diesel cars actually make? [/quote]

Just because something has only a small impact doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile!

And with the trams and electric buses in Greater Manchester, things are moving in the right direction up here.

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]There was some independent research, commissioned by a retired surgeon I believe, that showed that the most polluting cars were old poorly maintained worn out ones, diesel and petrol alike, and these were far worse than modern diesels in terms of particulate emissions. [/quote]

I assume that was what the scrappage scheme was for? As far as I know, it was successful....there really don't seem to be as many knackered old cars on the road as there used to be?

RE: Green cars

Bob Russell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 10:57:43 GMT

I felt encouraged to buy diesel. Generally don't regret it but feel very annoyed that VW felt cheating was acceptable. The company does not seem to have faced much in the way of consequences in Europe.

Southampton docks apparently replaced their fleet of Dacia's with shiny Mitsubishi hybrids. Nobody thought this through as these vehicles are driven 24 hours a day, seven days a week so they almost never get charged up! The owners may have caught various tax breaks when they bought them but are now paying a fortune in fuel!!

I have had so many electrical faults with my Skoda Yeti that I would never touch one again. Thankfully the most recent fault was fixed by a company on ebay rather than a thousand Pound bill for parts from the authorised dealer!

I loved my Subaru and may consider a hybrid when it comes out next year. It will get plugged in!

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 09:32:08 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Isn't the move away from diesel cars mainly about improving air quality in built up areas? [/quote]

Yes, but most (>95%) diesel that is used is in lorries, buses, trains. How much difference would eradicating diesel cars actually make? In fact modern properly maintained diesels are cleaner than ever, although they are more suited to distance rather than city driving.

We were encouraged to buy diesel by the Blair and Brown governments, and even given good tax savings incentives to do so. Now we are being told they are the bad guy - wish they could make their minds up.

There was some independent research, commissioned by a retired surgeon I believe, that showed that the most polluting cars were old poorly maintained worn out ones, diesel and petrol alike, and these were far worse than modern diesels in terms of particulate emissions.

RE: Green cars

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 08:49:03 GMT

Isn't the move away from diesel cars mainly about improving air quality in built up areas?

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 08:42:46 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Or a lower energy lifestyle?[/quote]

I would agree, and would be all for it. Unfortunately though, without the political will to do it, any form of incentivisation, and an ever increasing demand for travel and energy; it is an ideological pipe dream that would drag us all back into the stone age.

RE: Green cars

Beats — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:49:28 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Surely the future has to be nuclear, particularly if nuclear fusion can be cracked. [/quote]

Or a lower energy lifestyle?

Random anecdote time:

A radio interview springs to mind from a decade ago. The presenter introduced a chap from the largest self-sufficient alternative economy in the world. The chap humbly countered that they were the fastest-growing self-sufficient alternative economy in the world, but there was a larger one in Australia. Not used to being corrected by someone down-playing their achievement in his radio slot, he quickly moved on to highlight the flaws and inconsistencies in their money-free barter community, such as using a publicly-funded road to attend the radio interview. The chap humbly responded that they weren't fully self-sufficient yet, giving other examples, and that he had to weigh up the benefits of the publicity on a national radio station with compromising his integrity by cycling on a publicly-funded road when, effectively, he paid no taxes - he said he wasn't sure he'd made the right decision. The radio-presenter, for the first time in memory, was lost for words. When he finally regained composure, he stammered out repeatedly something along the lines of "you cycled over 100 miles to attend this 3-minute radio interview???" Having clearly earned his respect in a manner that no former guest had, he appeared unable to continue with his trademark guest-bashing line of questioning and instead asked normal questions aimed simply at finding out more.

RE: Green cars

Clive Ansell — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:19:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The entire concept of green energy is flawed. it's the national grid. If I pour a liter of spring water into a swimming pool and I put the bottle back in the pool and fill it with water would you be happy me selling that to you as spring water?[/quote]

I can see what you mean, but the quantities are different.

in 2017, I think about 29% of electricity came from renewable sources, 21% from nuclear and about 50% from fossil fuels, so in answer to Liz's post above if you plug in your electric car, there is about a 50% chance the power comes from fossil fuel. Added to that the energy loss through the national grid, may as well just burn the petrol or diesel in a combustion engine.

Surely the future has to be nuclear, particularly if nuclear fusion can be cracked.

RE: Green cars

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 00:52:29 GMT

The entire concept of green energy is flawed. it's the national grid. If I pour a liter of spring water into a swimming pool and I put the bottle back in the pool and fill it with water would you be happy me selling that to you as spring water?