I can't recognise my town any more ...

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 18:31:31 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Does anyone have any numbers for me (what is large numbers in the UK, something similar to the 890.000 arriving in Germany in 2015?)[/quote]

Well it depends on the size of the community affected (ie London can absorb more immigrants without it causing a problem than the village of Ansty, Wiltshire, pop. 30)

But I was thinking about the immigrants that arrived in Germany when I wrote my post, Dagmar. I thought that did cause some problems. Has it?

[/quote]

Sorry, I'm late to the party, too much work and Christmas preparations. Yes and no. It didn't cause as many problems as people feared and as it has been described in the press, also in the international press. Most of it went very smoothly, of course when you look at such a great number of individuals there'll always be a few rotten apples amongst them. I think we have to differentiate between what problems the actual immigrants caused (very little, it's just been made public that more than half of them have learned enough of our language and are in some kind of work/job by now) and what problems the fear has caused. The latter has made for the increased rise of a right wing party. I can only speak for what I have experienced and heard from friends, relatives and workmates. I practice close to a major city, live in a 30.000 inhabitants city. We occasionally see immigrants in the streets, we meet them at the shops, our town has taken in 1000 people. So far I have yet to come across a problem. But as with all nationalities living abroad there are issues, people building societies in the society, gangs, issues with cultural differences. Most problems here are however not caused by the syrian people who came in great numbers in 2015.

My personal opinion: Every society profits from people from abroad coming in. I always loved the variety of Indian and Asian restaurants in Britain, in Germany the best greengrocers are often run by Turkish people, we have great Italian, Portugese, Greek, Chinese and whatnot restaurants. Our health system would be non-functional without Polish, Vietnamese etc. people. I am not afraid of incomers but of mankind in general. During the balcan war we took in many people from Bosnia etc., many of them have since returned, other live a peaceful life here. Towns will always change over the years and although we may be afraid of change I am convinced it isn't necessarily a bad thing, on the contrary.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 17:55:56 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]After this Romans didn't seem to stay long[/quote]

Well, nearly 400 years.

The Roman Empire was probably the longest-lasting empire ever. About a thousand years (depending on where you start and stop counting).

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Chris Milligan — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:27:07 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I think it's about obvious differences making people feel outside their comfort zone[/quote]

but what your comfort zone is varies on the circumstances of your upbringing, politics and where you live. I'm British, grew up in a very diverse part of the East Midlands. I went to a very diverse university and think nothing of living outside of the UK. To see people hammering on immigrants about how much their town is changing makes me feel outside my comfort zone because that's the opposite of what I grew up with, in Britain. There's been so much people speaking for other groups of people in this whole Brexit nonsense I think many people on both sides (or however many sides there are now) lose track of the fact that their particular set of circumstances aren't representative.

Also where is your evidence that immigrants in the UK tend not to integrate? In the US it has been an issue but that's often because immigrant groups to tend populate very large regions or parts of cities at a time ; in the UK seeing shops set up isn't quite the same thing. Many immigrants don't stick together as much as you'd imagine - I for one make a habit of avoiding the local Brit-haunts; I didn't move away to stay in Little Britain.

And let's not kid ourselves that individual immigrants would fare better or be any more welcome in a foreign society on their own if they didn't "stick together". Going after immigrants is the same the world over. The excuses are always the same.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 06:55:37 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Do you know if this means 'old Briton' ie Celtic or from the Angles?[/quote]

"Old Briton" is not a term I have heard before. You can't mean Ancient Briton –

[/quote]

I stand corrected, I meant Ancient Britons. What I have read, Ancient Britons supposed to be the oldest known tribes and were also referred as 'Celtic' in some cases. Some believe they were killed but not all historians agree on how things went. They still believe they migrated from Europe.

After this Romans didn't seem to stay long and then Angles, Saxon, Jutes and Frisians came. So when a DNA test you're almost pure British, it made me wonder what it actually meant.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

bevs2251 — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 00:46:55 GMT

First fleet descendant Anglo-Aussie (7-8 generations). Thanks UK for kicking out my ancestors from Old Blighty ! Glad to be here and well away from most of the s..t going down on that side of the world !!

Saw a show on how Europe came about recently. Apparently, everyone on the planet has up to 2% Neanderthal genes, and we all have North African genes. French and German genetics cannot be told apart (as originally all from Frankia). Don't think French people would be too happy to know that ! Genetic DNA testing on the presenter done thru an American lab and took two weeks so presumably reasonably accurate.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Cinzia Gandini — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 00:11:47 GMT

Apart from the Roman emperors the legions were from across the Roman Empire so hardly from Rome the city, not really they were romanising, bringing technology, teaching how to trade to then collect taxes

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 23:53:07 GMT

Also interesting to note, Britannia was (more or less) part of the Roman Empire from 43AD to 410AD, but I don't think she was inhabited by Romans much, apart from the garrisons and governors and that sort of thing.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Cinzia Gandini — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 23:44:48 GMT

I think it’s before and after the Romans, the Anglo Saxons invasions are dated 5th century while Celts should be before and as you said the Ancient Britons Celtic Britons...so something like before 43 and after 410 AD

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 23:26:57 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Do you know if this means 'old Briton' ie Celtic or from the Angles?[/quote]

"Old Briton" is not a term I have heard before. You can't mean Ancient Briton – they came before the Celts (and very little is known of them).

If Clive is Angle or Saxon that would make him anything from 40th to 60th generation.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Cinzia Gandini — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:49:06 GMT

Actually the Romans left Britannia in 410 AD, not many years ago DNA speaking, maybe it’s possible to be more accurate with DNA tests who knows, fascinating anyway

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:17:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

I'm pure bred (well almost) British through and through.

I've done one of those Ancestry DNA tests just for fun. my DNA is, apparently, almost 100% British midlands with just a splattering of <1% Scandinavian thrown in. Unsure of accuracy though.

[/quote]

Do you know if this means 'old Briton' ie Celtic or from the Angles?

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Clive Ansell — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:39:17 GMT

I'm pure bred (well almost) British through and through.

I've done one of those Ancestry DNA tests just for fun. my DNA is, apparently, almost 100% British midlands with just a splattering of <1% Scandinavian thrown in. Unsure of accuracy though.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:01:43 GMT

I presume, based on my surname, that I should ironically be moving to Brussels...

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:58:42 GMT

Not first, second or even third generation for me.

Not sure the 'indigenous' population were overly impressed when the Romans or the Normans arrived. The Vikings were not a bunch of sweethearts either.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Richard Carter — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:42:15 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

(3rd generation immigrant).

[/quote]

Aren't we all.

[/quote]

No.

[/quote] better check what the Romans, Normans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Celts, more Germans, some Spanish that could swim after the Armada (apparently a number of Irish are descendent of these survivors) the French, various prisoners of war over the centuries, the american GI's in 2 world wars, the NATO forces post war, the Asian movement after collapse of empire, the Caribbean, the african, the Commonwealth, the EU ??

Nope - looks like we pretty safely of one ethnic origin....

Would the original blue painted Pict please put up their hand??

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:58:05 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

(3rd generation immigrant).

[/quote]

Aren't we all.

[/quote]

No.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:16:07 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

(3rd generation immigrant).

[/quote]

Aren't we all.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:59:51 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]By the way, I hate the word 'integrate'. Because implies that those who originally live in the land by chance, not choice, don't need to make an effort.[/quote]

I on't think they do need to make much effort. If I go on holiday somewhere I go along with their cultures and ways. Go to some places in England with high numbers of immigrants and it can feel like a foreign country. We should be proud of our heritage and do what we can to maintain it. I find it sad that the St George's cross has been corrupted by football hooligans and the BNP. We should diplay it with pride like the American's do.

(RVC grad, I lived in central London for 2 years)

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:38:20 GMT

You beat me to it Clive

British High Streets are becoming increasingly sterile, coffee shops, estate agents and charity shops.

Walk through Bishopston in Bristol for example the area is vibrant thanks in no small part to a falafel cafe, ethnic markets and the best Baklava in the UK

Our weather doesn't help, but these businesses bring a touch of Southern European attitude to our shops and that's very welcome

Neil

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Clive Ansell — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:17 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] the part that report slightly glosses over: Community impacts. People don't like it when they see their high street shop names all turning into Polish, or Arabic, or whatever, and areas turning into immigrant enclaves.[/quote][/quote]

I don't agree. I think quite often Asian, Polish, Romanian etc shops make an area more interesting and diverse. I often visit them, and there is a really good Polish shop near one of my practices that sells some great bread, cooked meats and cheeses, not to mention the beer.

If anything is ruining modern towns, it is the decline, now often absence, of small independent shops and cafes, leaving just large chain shops and bars - our towns are morphing into clone ghost towns - they all appear the same.

Added to that, at least where I live, are extortionate business rates (Councils under financial pressure because of government spending cuts) which small traders cannot afford, and ludicrously high parking charges and traffic congestion. Easy to see why folk shop online and don't visit the high street as they once did. There has also been a rise in my area of street and drug related crime.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:52:21 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Where are you been, amigo mío?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-punched-racist-attack-london-overground-speaking-spanish-tfl-police-a8604436.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43766985 [/quote]

OK Francisco, I should not have asked: Have you heard of 'anyone' protesting against the Spanish.

Of course someone will have protested, and of course you can come up with an exceptional story about some pond life behaving like pond life, but I don't think that is indicative of a wider anti-Spanish sentiment.

Anyway, I doubt very much that the pond life in those stories recognised the language as Spanish. I'll bet all they knew was that they didn't understand it.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Asian people have been coming over for decades and they tend to organise themselves 'hanging out' with each other much more than Europeans do.[/quote]

Yes, that's true. I still think speed of change is a factor. One of three main ones: numbers, speed and 'how different'.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]By the way, I hate the word 'integrate'. Because implies that those who originally live in the land by chance, not choice, don't need to make an effort.[/quote]

Interesting point. I live here by chance, I suppose (3rd generation immigrant). Do I need to make an effort? I was brought up to be good mannered (I like to think!) and to treat people with respect. I think that's probably the extent of my responsibility. I think there probably is a greater onus on the immigrant to assimilate; learn the language, customs etc. That's harder than just being welcoming.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:28:03 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Does anyone have any numbers for me (what is large numbers in the UK, something similar to the 890.000 arriving in Germany in 2015?)[/quote]

Well it depends on the size of the community affected (ie London can absorb more immigrants without it causing a problem than the village of Ansty, Wiltshire, pop. 30)

But I was thinking about the immigrants that arrived in Germany when I wrote my post, Dagmar. I thought that did cause some problems. Has it?

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:24:57 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Why?[/quote]

You say nobody ever protested about the British setting up home in Spain, but equally Francisco, have you ever heard of anyone in Britain protesting about the Spanish. I'll wager not!

[/quote]

Where are you been, amigo mío?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-punched-racist-attack-london-overground-speaking-spanish-tfl-police-a8604436.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43766985

I don't agree with speed = less integration. Asian people have been coming over for decades and they tend to organise themselves 'hanging out' with each other much more than Europeans do.

By the way, I hate the word 'integrate'. Because implies that those who originally live in the land by chance, not choice, don't need to make an effort.

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:22:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

It's also about how, when immigrants arrive in large numbers rapidly, they tend not to integrate, choosing instead to hang out with each other. That leads to a divided society, and the more culturally and physiologically different they are, the more they tend to stick together (not saying that is anyone's fault, it is just a fact).

Immigration policies need to take these issues into account - not just blindly hope everyone will rub along together OK.

[/quote]

Does anyone have any numbers for me (what is large numbers in the UK, something similar to the 890.000 arriving in Germany in 2015?)

RE: I can't recognise my town any more ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:16:54 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Why?[/quote]

I think it's about obvious differences making people feel outside their comfort zone. So you tend to see less of a problem between people who are culturally and physiologically similar.

You say nobody ever protested about the British setting up home in Spain, but equally Francisco, have you ever heard of anyone in Britain protesting about the Spanish. I'll wager not!

Immigration policies need to take these issues into account - not just blindly hope everyone will rub along together OK.