Canine PTS

RE: Canine PTS

Bob Russell — Thu, 27 Dec 2018 12:02:48 GMT

Any route where the patient 'drops off the end of a needle' must (almost by definition) be acceptable. I used to euthanase feral cats occasionally by scruffing and injecting intracardiac - so quick that they are still complaining about the scruffing by the time they have popped their clogs.

I have to admit that it is not something I have done for some years. It does have to be done well to be acceptable, that flash of blood and you know it is right. I suppose I no longer deal with the number of feral cats. I disagree that it should be considered unethical but it is not to be done without carefully weighing up the pros and cons.

It is worrying that there are blanket 'it is unethical to....' being applied based on what I suspect is a personal opinion. Lots of things become wrong when done incorrectly.

That said these 'other' techniques may be unsuitable in anything but the most unfortunate circumstances.

RE: Canine PTS

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 23:07:54 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Cardiac, it isn't that easy. The telling of this is 'draw back" if you get blood you are in the right place. I have seen quite a few vets try to hit the heart after all veins are blown and the dog, cat are heavily sedated. Hand on heart (no pun meant) I have seen one success first time and many failures[/quote]

I wonder if this is one of those tips I didn't realise anyone needed:

Always RHS as ventricle thinner. I use 18G X1.5" needle. Animal easiest in sternal. Feel for apex beat - properly feel for the strongest beat, that is where you are going in. Bottom 25% of the chest. Once you are into the chest apply gentle negative pressure and advance until you get a flash of blood, at that point inject (I usually steady the needle with 2 fingers to prevent it getting moved. I will draw back at the end and possibly once in the middle to check still in the correct place.

In a sedated it dog it's like the kidney injection in cats, people are amazed you've done anything as the animal slips away.

RE: Canine PTS

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 22:42:28 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] I almost always go intra cardiac after sedation and feeling for an apex beat it's very easy and very little stress. What worries me with these discussions is how quick we are to condem it, when many of us havn't put an animal to sleep using the method. I've had the discussion about kidneys in cats with people telling me it's unethical and painful, but they've never done it or seen it done.[/quote]

I agree on one and disagree on the other

Renal, done that lots of times and it works well, would recommend it

Cardiac, it isn't that easy. The telling of this is 'draw back" if you get blood you are in the right place. I have seen quite a few vets try to hit the heart after all veins are blown and the dog, cat are heavily sedated. Hand on heart (no pun meant) I have seen one success first time and many failures. Now if the animal is conscious that makes things even harder.

Neil

RE: Canine PTS

Lesley Strong — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:34:21 GMT

While locuming in Glasgow recently met a vet who the police keep on retainer to dart aggressive dogs in peoples' houses that they can't shoot so it is possible . I suppose it depends on where you are but suspect if it's that bad then police are your first post of call and you could glam it up by saying it's about to escape and eat someone!

RE: Canine PTS

Phil Hyde — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:19:58 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]In my last practice I was once called upon to euthanase an old pet pig, we were concerned about the thickness of its skull and the likelihood of a clean kill with a handgun, and none of us had access to any other firearms.[/quote]

Barrel of gun down the ear works a treat...

RE: Canine PTS

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:11:25 GMT

You were right to be concerned. Not a story for the internet, I'm afraid.

RE: Canine PTS

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 15:08:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I'm not sure I agree. I wouldn't use it routinely in dogs but it is very effective in things like lambs. I almost always go intra cardiac after sedation and feeling for an apex beat it's very easy and very little stress.[/quote]

In my last practice I was once called upon to euthanase an old pet pig, we were concerned about the thickness of its skull and the likelihood of a clean kill with a handgun, and none of us had access to any other firearms. The advice from my boss was to heavily sedate it with ketamine, xylazine and butorphanol and then use a spinal needle to give an intracardiac pentobarb injection. It went very smoothly, it was used to being handled and wasn't too worried by the i/m injection, was snoring away after about 15 minutes and didn't react at all to the intracardiac injection.

RE: Canine PTS

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 13:21:53 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I almost always go intra cardiac after sedation and feeling for an apex beat it's very easy and very little stress.[/quote]

I agree. I also use it after heavy sedation. I just wouldn't do so in a fully conscious, moving animal.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I've had the discussion about kidneys in cats with people telling me it's unethical and painful, but they've never done it or seen it done.[/quote]

For the record, I think intrarenal in skinny cats is easy and painless. As long as the person operating the needle is quick, confident and can feel the anatomy adequately.

RE: Canine PTS

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:37:33 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I also think that intracardiac is inhumane in most concious animals[/quote]

I'm not sure I agree. I wouldn't use it routinely in dogs but it is very effective in things like lambs. I almost always go intra cardiac after sedation and feeling for an apex beat it's very easy and very little stress. What worries me with these discussions is how quick we are to condem it, when many of us havn't put an animal to sleep using the method. I've had the discussion about kidneys in cats with people telling me it's unethical and painful, but they've never done it or seen it done.

RE: Canine PTS

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 11:58:53 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I've had a dog "cry out" during a cephalic I/V too but it's the lasting memory for the owner, and in the above incident the entire Italian family, in their front room...[/quote]

I also think that intracardiac is inhumane in most concious animals, but this is due to the risk of accidental trauma to other structures, risk of failure to achieve very quick lack of conciousness, and likelihood of causing significant pain. Not anecdote.

As you say, it is fairly common for animals to show a pain response to venepuncture. (More so to cannulation than 'off the needle', in my experience) so simply basing your choice of method on a single distressed dog isn't sound.

Having said that, cardiac venepuncture is routine in snakes, so I often use this method for PTS. I guess the ability to 'hit the spot' reliably and quickly without traumatising other organs is a big factor.

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 10:41:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] "intra-cardiac" injection in a cat has actually been an injection into the anterior vena cava.[/quote]

Never needed it in a cat or dog, or wanted it, after my early observation, and I'm sure the retired farmer in NZ [not renowned for being soppy....] will remember his lovely old labrador's cry still [as I do].

I've had a dog "cry out" during a cephalic I/V too but it's the lasting memory for the owner, and in the above incident the entire Italian family, in their front room...

This happens rarely IMHE, but is distressing.

RE: Canine PTS

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 23:28:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Plunging a large needle into heart muscle seemed painful by the old dog's cry, made worse as a simple I/V seemed a much easier route.[/quote]

I have a feeling that the entirely successful, almost-instantaneous-death, "intra-cardiac" injection in a cat has actually been an injection into the anterior vena cava.

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:18:21 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The pain is probably from going through the pleura. Mr Todd is fond of telling us how he's saved dyspnoeic cats by conscious thoracocentesis, so his stance is bizarre to say the least.[/quote]

No pain, IMHE. from, going through the pleura and I've never said there was.

Plunging a large needle into heart muscle seemed painful by the old dog's cry, made worse as a simple I/V seemed a much easier route.

Chest or abdominal taps always seemed painless in cats using a 22g needle, or even a 20G cannula, in the consult room in front of the owner; nice seeing the gums go pink....

Have injected into the kidney many times in a PTS; again usually, surprisingly, painless.

RE: Canine PTS

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:26:26 GMT

I have a dart gun and wouldn't fire it at a dog. Savage dog in the old stable wants shooting with a shotgun. Safe and simple. I kill some deer RTAs with a silenced shotgun.

The discussion has moved on but intra renal in cats is my preference. 100% sure it's not painful.

RE: Canine PTS

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:43:44 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]So abdication is the only solution? [/quote]

Are you actually joking?

As I've said, I've dealt with nasty, very aggressive dogs. But if, as you have suggested, it is impossible to restrain it at all without getting your face redesigned, what the hell do you expect the average GP vet to do?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Nobody has suggested darting which, thinking about it many years later, would be a good idea[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]and I would suggest a zoo vet [/quote]

Oh, and is it safely restrained in a horse box or

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]except probably "darting" in a populated area..... [/quote]

Make your mind up!

(Zoo vets will dart in much tougher situations! Try darting a chimpanzee that hates you, is throwing lumps of shit in your direction and intends to fling the dart straight back at you ...which would be lethal to you if it hits! )

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:09:49 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]Our local RSPCA inspectorate has a trained dart gun operator as one of the inspectors. We hold the controlled drugs for him. So actually they are worth a try as I think each region has one. Just for reference if anyone has a dangerous situation! [/quote]

See, finally, we have a probable best solution although I hope vets' local RSPCAs are more helpful now than they used to be.

[recalling my incident now I seem to remember the caller gave minimum details and, the alsation was the school pet etc. etc.]

RE: Canine PTS

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:48:17 GMT

Our local RSPCA inspectorate has a trained dart gun operator as one of the inspectors. We hold the controlled drugs for him. So actually they are worth a try as I think each region has one. Just for reference if anyone has a dangerous situation!

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:46:51 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I think Gillian sums it up nicely - the situation is contained, there's time to plan and also get some backup[/quote]

So abdication is the only solution? Do you really think the police would fire any weapon into a concrete floored structure in a densely populated area; they'd evacuate a suburb first, I wager....

Nobody has suggested darting which, thinking about it many years later, would be a good idea, except probably "darting" in a populated area.....

Who has a dart gun? In London N16 on a weekday mid-morning, even today?

London Zoo for sure, I guess, but I'll bet everyone consulted would cite some regulation precluding participation!!

Be nice for the forum to know who has darts and how easy are they to access 'cos that it the best solution yet; I hope HCN isn't someone's first choice next time, and sooner or later, there will be!

RE: Canine PTS

Rob Loxley — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:31:21 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I posted my experience hoping for a better solution for the next vet placed in a similar situation[/quote]

I think Gillian sums it up nicely - the situation is contained, there's time to plan and also get some backup

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:48:48 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]Well, you've got to expect a little colateral damage - where's your fighting spirit [/quote]

Just imagine the headlines in the Daily Mail!! [The repercussions from the shot pet monkey lasted a long time.....]

I posted my experience hoping for a better solution for the next vet placed in a similar situation.

RE: Canine PTS

Utlendigur — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 13:10:02 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]that we got a local equine/large animal vet to shoot.[/quote]

Fine, but in a metropolis and a school full of kids and a mad alsation in a concrete floored ex-horse-box??[/quote]

Well, you've got to expect a little colateral damage - where's your fighting spirit

Niall

[/quote]

Or just send the kids home - I mean a couple of spiders is enough to close schools in these days "health and safety"

RE: Canine PTS

Niall Taylor — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 12:47:06 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]that we got a local equine/large animal vet to shoot.[/quote]

Fine, but in a metropolis and a school full of kids and a mad alsation in a concrete floored ex-horse-box??[/quote]

Well, you've got to expect a little colateral damage - where's your fighting spirit

Niall

RE: Canine PTS

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 11:01:04 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Not trying to justify my HCN, just looking for better solutions if it happens to another vet, 'cos it'd have been nice to know a safer alternative ten years ago.....[/quote]

If I couldn't think of a way to closely restrain it for injection, nor give food with sedative, then it would be outside of my skill set and I would decline to help. Anything else would be putting mine and others health and safety at risk.

I have dealt with very nasty animals, but have always been able to find a way to restrain the head....either a dog catcher or a slip lead held through a closed door works well. Occasionally the dog does twist the noose continuously and faints....makes injecting very easy. (Never done deliberately obviously.)

In the scenario you described, as the animal is restrained in a horse box, time is not critical and I would suggest a zoo vet or a police marksman. The former would be my preference. Aggressive animal that wants to kill you? Bread and butter stuff to them!

RE: Canine PTS

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 10:39:56 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]that we got a local equine/large animal vet to shoot.[/quote]

Fine, but in a metropolis and a school full of kids and a mad alsation in a concrete floored ex-horse-box??

Not trying to justify my HCN, just looking for better solutions if it happens to another vet, 'cos it'd have been nice to know a safer alternative ten years ago.....

RE: Canine PTS

Rob Loxley — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 09:07:01 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]For nasty dogs you can't safely inject to sedate, medetomidine per os (in a little bit of food) works reasonably well - but you need about 1ml/10kg. [/quote]

How long before you're able to approach??

[/quote]

20-30 minutes, usually sleepy enough to muzzle or give some more IM.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Be good if we could get a consensus of how to do it when the next wild alsation, totally uncontrolled, in a large enclosed space in a public area needs to be PTS but safely yet humanely[/quote]

If wouldn't take oral sedatives, I'd look at getting someone with a firearm in, or maybe someone who could dart it? Last similar case I had was callout to an RTA deer - I assumed was a muntjac but turned out to be fully grown red deer staggering round the road with an open tibial fracture - that we got a local equine/large animal vet to shoot.