Brexit - what do you think will happen?

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:52:20 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]100% acceptable. It's a JOKE. All comedy works by poking fun at someone.[/quote]

So ... hypothetical situation.... a client tells you that their dog is constantly barking so they chucked a bucket of water over it, so you jokingly say to a waiting room full of clients 'he should have chucked battery acid over it - that would have shut it up!'

It was a joke. But was it appropriate?

Of course not. You are a person of professional stature and influence whose words are expected to reflect that. I doubt your clients would be amused. Maybe in a prep room that joke could carry with people you know, who know your sense of humour, but never in the public domain.

People on TV who have a large audience have a responsibility to moderate their 'jokes'. If they don't like it, they need to remove themselves from a position of influence.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Bob Russell — Wed, 19 Jun 2019 14:20:43 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

[quote user="David Mills"]

How has the BBC not sacked Jo Brand yet?

Jeremy Clarkson

Carol Thatcher

Danny Baker

What an awful, desperate, corrupt, directionless, moribund, hypocritical organisation the BBC is. Hope Bojo "reviews" the licence fee.

[/quote]She has made a very heartfelt apology.

[/quote]

So did Danny Baker.

I don't accept this sort of comment/joke as acceptable. Politicians have become targets of violence instead of the traditional fun!

An MP was murdered, others have hate mail that defies belief.

Much as I despise Farage there is nothing acceptable or amusing about this sort of thing being said at peak time on Radio 4. Later at night, in a stand up act she may have got away with a lot more.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 18 Jun 2019 00:59:08 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]It was a good joke.[/quote]

No it wasn't. Jokes are supposed to be funny.

[quote user="Christina Smith"]Jo is at the top of her game [/quote]

Is that the latest phrase for "totally unfunny"?

[quote user="Christina Smith"] at least she has the guts to retract.[/quote]

No, what would have taken guts would have been to say "it may have been a bad thing to say but I'm not retracting because free speech is of paramount importance". Instead she apologised because she saw those nice BBC cheques receding.

[quote user="Christina Smith"]Boris/Nigel spread and stir up xenophobia[/quote]

No they don't.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Christina Smith — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 22:49:40 GMT

It was a good joke. Go down to your local comedy club and you will hear lots of hilarious stuff. Jo is at the top of her game and has overstepped but at least she has the guts to retract. Boris/Nigel spread and stir up xenophobia with no apparent shame

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

David Mills — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 22:21:36 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]She has made a very heartfelt apology[/quote]

It's the best joke I've heard associated with Jo Brand

So it's ok to say something that most people find a bit off, but as long as you apologise (who decides heartfelt?!) It's ok? All the above did, or is this, yawn, lefty moralising about how "heartfelt" it was.

Embarrassing

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Christina Smith — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 21:54:11 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

How has the BBC not sacked Jo Brand yet?

Jeremy Clarkson

Carol Thatcher

Danny Baker

What an awful, desperate, corrupt, directionless, moribund, hypocritical organisation the BBC is. Hope Bojo "reviews" the licence fee.

[/quote]She has made a very heartfelt apology.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

David Mills — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 21:19:24 GMT

How has the BBC not sacked Jo Brand yet?

Jeremy Clarkson

Carol Thatcher

Danny Baker

What an awful, desperate, corrupt, directionless, moribund, hypocritical organisation the BBC is. Hope Bojo "reviews" the licence fee.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Christina Smith — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 21:04:19 GMT

I can laugh at very unpc stuff and welcome comedy and art parodying life. In our leaders and politicians I expect leadership

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 20:29:43 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I'm starting to feel like some people in this forum find comedians joking about throwing battery acid at politicians instead of milkshakes as quite acceptable.[/quote]

100% acceptable. It's a JOKE. All comedy works by poking fun at someone. Lets stop santitising the world and getting offended on each others behalf. There is already a Jimmy Carr joke along the lines of "throwing battery acid is wrong........ in some people's eyes".

[/quote]

OK. How about "I'd love to throw battery acid over Jo Brand for being a self-righteous sniggering lefty cow, and it couldn't make her any uglier than she is already"

100% acceptable?

[/quote]

I believe both of you come from a similar political stance and have, not the same, but similar views of what's not OK.

My view is simple, comedians do just that: comedy. And we should take that bit of context into consideration. Having said that, it would give her and others some dignity if they manage to make people laugh, using relevant up-to-date information but taking the state of society into consideration. That would make her a good comedian, this joke only made her cheap.

Do people make sinister jokes about 9/11? Sure. But not the month after you don't.

In the case of Farage complaining, this has just helped slipping his mask of Trump-like leader. He's not the 'everything goes' because of the freedom of speech he so much defend when asked about his coded messages. He's just another snowflake like all of us.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Christina Smith — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 18:39:36 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] In the same way I don't believe Jo Brand would actually throw a cup of acid over Boris if actually given the chance.[/quote]

She actually said it about Nigel Farage with the clear implication that it's all right to throw acid over someone with whom you disagree (remember, in BBC Land, Jo Brand and the lefty sniggerers are always right). I heard her. No, I don't suppose she would really throw acid over him, and you know I would defend the right to free speech to the death. But consider context and that this was on nationwide broadcasting. And her remark wasn't even spontaneous, it was clearly premeditated. Some nasty idiot is going to be encouraged to really throw acid. Moreover, some things are just too horrible to joke about – you just shouldn't do it.

Remember, this is the woman who got all self-righteous when somebody, not on air but in private, suggested that some chap had such a hair style he looked like a golliwog (and he did).

[/quote]Clearly unacceptable and she has acknowledged that. Has Boris accepted that his approval of racist comments may set a precedence for racial hatred?

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:39:04 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] In the same way I don't believe Jo Brand would actually throw a cup of acid over Boris if actually given the chance.[/quote]

Remember, this is the woman who got all self-righteous when somebody, not on air but in private, suggested that some chap had such a hair style he looked like a golliwog (and he did).

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:25:39 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Well, sorry to be so grim and pious just for once, but it's not OK with me, especially not when acid-throwing is getting fashionable amongst the thug class. This is nothing to do with getting offended on either my or someone else's behalf, it's about somebody saying something that they just shouldn't say. [/quote]

You've never said "I'm going to kill him/her"? I have so many times but I don't actually mean it. In the same way I don't believe Jo Brand would actually throw a cup of acid over Boris if actually given the chance. That's how it's different.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:13:34 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Yes, I'm ok with that. As long as you just say it and don't actually do it.

[/quote]

Well, sorry to be so grim and pious just for once, but it's not OK with me, especially not when acid-throwing is getting fashionable amongst the thug class. This is nothing to do with getting offended on either my or someone else's behalf, it's about somebody saying something that they just shouldn't say.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:53:07 GMT

Yes, I'm ok with that. As long as you just say it and don't actually do it.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:51:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I'm starting to feel like some people in this forum find comedians joking about throwing battery acid at politicians instead of milkshakes as quite acceptable.[/quote]

[/quote]

OK. How about "I'd love to throw battery acid over Jo Brand for being a self-righteous sniggering lefty cow, and it couldn't make her any uglier than she is already"

100% acceptable?

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:58:53 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I'm starting to feel like some people in this forum find comedians joking about throwing battery acid at politicians instead of milkshakes as quite acceptable.[/quote]

Jesus.

This is why I think we need Boris. Someone to take charge with a sense of humour and a tough skin. Its a shame the Duke of Edinburgh is too old, he's come out with some good ones over the years.

Love Boris.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 09:44:35 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]The burka is not a religious symbol it is a cultural one, long pre-dating Islam.[/quote]

I didn't know that, thank you for illuminating!

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Heres-the-truth-behind-the-veil/articleshow/5516871.cms

I do still wonder, though, whether the appropriation of the burka by religion renders any historical cultural use somewhat irrelevant. What I mean is that the above article refers to the burka being defined in pre-Islamic times as: "a piece of clothing that was used as a protection, especially in winters." I don't think it still serves that purpose (maybe it does in other countries), so I'm not sure whether current use is cultural or religious.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]it is not right to deride those who wear it by likening them to letterboxes. That is an insult to centuries of culture - nothing at all like criticising the wearers of shellsuits for questionable fashion choices[/quote]

I'm not trying to be a smart arse. Genuinely. But it seems you are arguing the difference between a shell suit and a burqa is centuries of culture, and it is that which makes it unacceptable to criticise the latter.

I question whether those who wear a burqa are doing it for reasons of centuries of culture, or something as recent as the 1930s. But that aside I am not sure why something becomes above criticism simply because it has been done for a long time, even centuries.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"] it's just not what I want to hear from a prime minister.[/quote]

No, I don't either. But he wasn't the prime minister.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Expecting the world to conform to your own cultural prejudice was never something I thought I would see in one of your posts.[/quote]

But I don't expect the world to conform to my own cultural ideals. Not at all.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]I don't think you're a bad person by any stretch, but with all due respect to you, the argument you use here is juvenile. And while you say that you don't go running around insulting people, you do say that you find the burqa "creepy". [/quote]

I guess it's my use of the word creepy you find juvenile? I wasn't saying it to be insulting, just the best word to describe how I feel about someone dressed head to toe in black, a bit like the Grim Reaper (but at least he shows his face).

That is something I would happily say to a burqa wearer's face (if I could), precisely because I am not meaning to be insulting. I think most people would agree that black is associate with death in the Western world, and face covering is divisive, and I would genuinely like to understand why, despite that, they obviously think it important to wear one in this country.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]And replying "says who?" in reply to a statement is frankly silly. It is certainly a personal opinion of mine that it isn't acceptable to denigrate the external appearance of an individual. But it's hardly a controversial stance. [/quote]

I wasn't sure 'says who' and you've now clarified it is a personal opinion of yours. Fair enough. I don't 100% agree with you. But then I don't 100% disagree either.

I don't think either you are I are the sorts of people that like running around upsetting people. But I think it is unrealistic to think people will never take the piss out of, or find a cheap laugh in difference, particularly people's external appearances. Actually, I think it would be a drab world if none of us could take the mick out of each other, though I accept it is a fine line sometimes, especially when we're talking about people's beliefs and cultures.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]The televised debates should be interesting![/quote]

Weren't they just.

Still slightly struggling to think who would be best, but reserving judgement till Boris makes his appearance.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 17 Jun 2019 05:03:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

( I see, Mark, that you have put a "like" on Mrs. Mostyn's unquestionably rude post in another thread....)

[/quote]

You said it was ok when a comedian said it

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 16 Jun 2019 21:36:58 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]'Professional offense-takers' is a fascinating term, but I do wonder. Should we all stay home and stay quiet when we see something unjust? [/quote]

I think we should consider the context, make sure (as far as we can) of our facts, and consider whether this is our business.

( I see, Mark, that you have put a "like" on Mrs. Mostyn's unquestionably rude post in another thread....)

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]letterbox. Honestly the comparison never occurred to me, the color was all wrong and they look nothing alike.[/quote]

That's where the humour of the remark lies. If the habiliment dictated for women by Wahhabi Islam were bright red, with EiiR on their tummy and a white enamel rectangle on their chest, with SK8 crudely spraypainted on their back and dog-piss around the groundlevel hemline, there would be no joke. It's in the sudden realisation where the humour lies. (By the way, some wide-screen movies appear, necessarily, for technical reasons, in "letterbox" format on my DVD player screen – even though it isn't bright red with EiiR on it's tummy....)

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 16 Jun 2019 20:59:00 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] Context, as always, is key.[/quote]

Exactly.

Mr. Johnson made the crack in throwaway style in a piece criticising European governments that propose to ban the burqa. He was actually opposing oppression.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Context, as always, is key.[/quote]

Not something that bothers the professional offence-takers, the "Islamophobia" worry-warts or the "journalists" looking for a sensation.

There are plenty of people in the world who really are oppressed.

[/quote]

And full credit to him for opposing said ban. I still think he's rude, though. I am capable of giving credit where it is due; but saying something I agree with doesn't mean he gets a free pass on saying things I don't agree with.

The same goes for you and me as well - there's things in this thread where we disagree, but inside and outside politics I look forward to reading what you write because it's sensible, erudite, and a pleasure to read.

Coming back to Boris, I don't feel it was a throwaway line, personally - Boris has too long a track record of picking his words carefully enough to know what he can get away with. I do accept that this is not something I can prove and I am unlikely to persuade anyone of this.

I don't agree with those that he's foolish or stupid - fools don't get as far as he's gotten.

You're quite right, oppression is happening on a daily basis all over the world. Sadly, it's a fascinating merry go round that humanity is so full of inhumanity.

'Professional offense-takers' is a fascinating term, but I do wonder. Should we all stay home and stay quiet when we see something unjust?

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 16 Jun 2019 20:01:52 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] Context, as always, is key.[/quote]

Exactly.

Mr. Johnson made the crack in throwaway style in a piece criticising European governments that propose to ban the burqa. He was actually opposing oppression.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Context, as always, is key.[/quote]

Not something that bothers the professional offence-takers, the "Islamophobia" worry-warts or the "journalists" looking for a sensation.

There are plenty of people in the world who really are oppressed.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:48:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]When they're not saying it about you, does that make it ok?[/quote]

I don't follow you.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Sure, I could say that wearing tweed makes someone look like an overstuffed sofa from a charity shop. Is that nice? Absolutely not. Is it mild? I think so, yes. Still rude. [/quote]

If you said it to an individual's face, unless you knew them really well, it would be rude. If you said it as part of a mild joke about red-faced tweedy gents fishing for salmon, would be mildly rude but perfectly acceptable. If a comedian came out with it during his act, you'd barely notice.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]You wouldn't say it to their face, would you?[/quote]

Not the point. The joke about the niquab, or burka, wasn't made about an individual at all. it was a mild crack about what women wearing the garment look like.

And, if I knew a Muslim woman really really well I might even say it to her face, in certain jokey circumstances, especially if I were a woman (though I'm not). I have an old friend, a lady, who has spent time in Saudi, and she has anecdotes about what educated Saudi women think – and wear – when they can get away from the men.

Oh, and I don't find either burka or niquab creepy. And I think that tweed is smart (as long as the check is not coarse or loud).

It's not exactly in the same league as suggesting that battery acid should be thrown over someone with whose opinions you disagree, is it?

[/quote]

Not quite sure how to reply to the multi quote without breaking things, so I'll try to do without. Let me begin by thanking you (I mean this in genuine sincerity) for the mature discussion I was hoping for. :)

David is right that putting things in people's mouth isn't right, but since we can probably both agree that Boris isn't a comedian, we come back to the other two options, that we appear to both consider the "tweed" comment was rude in both remaining scenarios. (Mildly rude, yes, but still rude.)

I can't claim to know the Saudi mindset perfectly, I only lived there from 1984-2001 and 2007-9. I didn't know anyone well enough to call them a letterbox. Honestly the comparison never occurred to me, the color was all wrong and they look nothing alike. I didn't find them creepy either. My point regards "not saying it about you" was to say that I don't think it's enough to stand up for my own rights. I believe it is important to stand up for others as well. Martin Niemoller had a well known piece regards oppression.

Letterbox may be mild for you, because it doesn't affect your daily life in any way. For burqa-wearers, the burqa is a larger piece of their life. Context, as always, is key. Again, were we to call a veterinary surgeon in a burqa a letterbox, this would be unacceptable, would it not? And while I can't claim to know Boris personally, I don't believe he meant his letterbox comment in a positive way.

And I absolutely 100% agree that suggesting people get battery acid thrown at them is 100% wrong.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:13:31 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Not the point. The joke about the niquab, or burka, wasn't made about an individual at all. it was a mild crack about what women wearing the garment look like.

[/quote]

I'm starting to feel like some people in this forum find comedians joking about throwing battery acid at politicians instead of milkshakes as quite acceptable.

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 21:00:38 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Do you feel the original comment by Mr Johnson was intended to be complimentary, or at best "quite neutral?"[/quote]

I've no idea. Are these the only acceptable things to write or comment these days?

You can see the similarity to letterboxes. I fail to see how that in itself is offensive.

Reading intent is a very dangerous game.

[/quote]

So it is - perhaps you're right, and Mr Johnson was expressing his well-known and long held admiration of the Muslim world by comparing a woman's appearance to a letterbox. After all, the Royal Mail has been a great success story in the recent years.

But as Mr Johnson is unlikely to post here to clarify, I suppose we'll never know. ;)

RE: Brexit - what do you think will happen?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 20:57:28 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]When they're not saying it about you, does that make it ok?[/quote]

I don't follow you.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]You wouldn't say it to their face, would you?[/quote]

Not the point. The joke about the niquab, or burka, wasn't made about an individual at all. it was a mild crack about what women wearing the garment look like.

Oh, and I don't find either burka or niquab creepy. And I think that tweed is smart (as long as the check is not coarse or loud).

It's not exactly in the same league as suggesting that battery acid should be thrown over someone with whose opinions you disagree, is it?