Underhand homeopathic tactics

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

bevs2251 — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 03:04:15 GMT

Years ago, vet homeopath up the road saw a dog with skin problems and prescribed some oily homeopathic concoction. Dog ended up soon after at Sydney University with fulminant pancreatitis and subsequently died (many $$$ later). So homeopathy is not "harmless". Have heard of human instances with bad outcomes as well (husband used to work at the Coroners Court).

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Niall Taylor — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:01:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Hang on a minute. Was it a veterinary surgeon who had been doing this homeopathic "treatment"? Or was it the owner?[/quote]

Well, when vets in the UK and elsewhere tell people that homeopathy cures cancer why shouldn't owners take them at their word. Homeopathy is bad for animal welfare, it causes suffering, and it is endorsed by health professionals.

Niall

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Niall Taylor — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:11:14 GMT

Not to mention that this year there has been a new Cochrane review on homeopathy which found there was no benefit over placebo and Lille University has dropped its homeopathy course.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I think we'd need another survey.[/quote]

We could call it The People's Survey!

Niall

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:23:09 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]came across this by some bloke called Arlo[/quote]

Crikey, he's like haemorrhoids, keeps popping up.

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]worth reading again[/quote]

That must be a first for me

For me, the really interesting question is whether that 60% of vets prepared to refer for homeopathic treatment has changed.

Personally, I thought (and still do think) that referring a case for a treatment you know to be bonkers/ineffective is a complete cop out; a total dereliction of duty. Sorry to anyone who does refer, but that's just how I feel about it. I just don't buy the argument that it allows you to retain a measure of control, or that 'its only water'.

Whilst we don't know whether that 60% has changed, I would certainly hope so, because since 2013 there have been a number of developments that should, one would have hoped, have swayed more people:

Two campaigns: The Campaign For Rational Veterinary Medicine and another run by Danny Chambers will have helped raise awareness.
2016 1100 vets signed Danny Chambers' petition to ban veterinary homeopathy. Rejected by the RCVS.
2016 Study: New study concludes insufficient evidence to support homeopathy in livestock
2017 Study: Choose alternative medicine and die early
2017 Book: No Way To Treat A Friend exposes homeopathy and many other forms of alternative medicine for what they are.
2017 Vet Record Review 'Comparison of veterinary drugs and homeopathy'
2017 RCVS finally comes off the fence and declares that it expects MsRCVS to offer treatments that "are underpinned by a recognised evidence base or sound scientific principles".
2017 The European Academies Science Advisory Council publishes a position statement on veterinary homeopathy which states that there is no evidence to support the use of homeopathy in veterinary medicine and to do so may cause significant harm to the patient.
2017 US FDA moves to protect consumers from homeopathy
2018 NHS wins High Court backing for decision to stop funding homeopathy

I would dearly like to think that as a consequence of all this, members of the profession might be less likely these days to tolerate this form of quackery, but I really don't know whether that's true! I think we'd need another survey.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Robert FalconerTaylor — Mon, 10 Dec 2018 08:12:09 GMT

Filing stuff from old computer and came across this by some bloke called Arlo - worth reading again and asking what progress has been made?

British Vets Denounce Homeopathy But Refer Clients for it Anyway?

Posted on August 14, 2013

Arlo Guthrie

As the editor of VetSurgeon.org, the leading online community for veterinary surgeons in the UK, I thought it would be interesting to assess British vets’ attitudes to homeopathy. So I joined forces with Alex Gough MA VetMB CertSAM CertVC MRCVS, Head of Medicine Referrals at Bath Veterinary Referrals to conduct a survey of our members.

The survey generated a response from 460 veterinary surgeons, which equates to about 2.4% of all 18,000 or so vets in the UK, including those that don’t work in general practice. So, a good sample size. First we asked whether respondents practised homeopathy themselves. 6.2% did, which means that there was some bias in favour of homeopaths (a survey carried out in 2006 found that 4.6% of British vets claimed complementary medicine as a speciality). We also asked whether homeopathy is routinely available to clients through the respondent’s practice. 7.7% said it was.

So to the first question to assess practitioners’ attitudes to homeopathy. We asked: ‘In your opinion, are there any veterinary medical conditions for which homeopathy could be an effective treatment? We deliberately couched this question in the broadest possible terms: ‘any’ and ‘could’. Despite this, a resounding 83.4% said ‘NO’.

In our next question, we sought to judge the depth of disbelief surrounding homeopathy. We asked: ‘Which would best describe your opinion of veterinary homeopathy?’. 77.4% answered ‘An ineffective form of veterinary medicine’. 9.5% said: ‘A rarely effective form of veterinary medicine’. 8.6% said: ‘An occasionally effective form of veterinary medicine’, and a paltry 4.5% said: ‘A reliably effective form of veterinary medicine’.

As a further indication of how strongly British practitioners believe that homeopathy is ineffective, 73% said that they believe that owners should sign a statement that they understand that in trials, homeopathy has been shown to be ineffective.

We also asked: ‘Do you feel it is appropriate for veterinary surgeons to practise homeopathy?’. 78.5% said ‘NO’.

All in all, a unequivocal result. Simply put, the overwhelming majority of British veterinary surgeons think homeopathy is wholly ineffective.

But how do they respond when asked by a client to refer a pet for homeopathy? In our survey, 24.3% of respondents said they would refer to a homeopath. A further 33.8% said they would explain that homeopathy does not work, but refer the case anyway. So that’s nearly 60% that would be prepared to refer, despite the majority believing that homeopathy is completely ineffective. 17.6% said they would explain that homeopathy does not work, and that the client will need to self-refer. 24.3% said they would explain that homeopathy does not work, and recommend the client does not self refer.

There are a number of possible hypotheses as to why vets may be prepared to refer clients for homeopathy, including a belief that they may retain some measure of control over the case, a fear of alienating the client, and the oft-stated argument that ‘it’s water, it’ll do no harm’.

We would argue that it’s the bigger picture that general practitioners need to consider; that the very act of referring endows homeopathy with a cloak of respectability which is simply not supported by science (on the contrary, it would require that we dismiss most of the proven laws of physics and chemistry).

It’s estimated that over £40M is spent on homeopathy annually in the UK, including £4M by the National Health Service. The sooner that more veterinary surgeons and their colleagues in human medicine are prepared to join the 24% of vets that refuse to endorse homeopathy, the sooner this money could be spent on effective methods of relieving suffering, both human and animal.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 00:06:18 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

When I was younger, at my Mum's practice, I was seeing practice during school work experience and an owner brought his Golden Retriever to be checked over for some lumps (that's all it said on the appointment).

His words were 'now I just want to tell you, I've been treating this homeopathically'.

[/quote]

Hang on a minute. Was it a veterinary surgeon who had been doing this homeopathic "treatment"? Or was it the owner?

Owners do all sorts of stupid things. Tea tree oil and similar rubbish.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Niall Taylor — Fri, 07 Dec 2018 16:34:50 GMT

Thanks, Anthony, that's just the sort of thing I was looking for. Absolutely shocking, a prime example of how people can fool themselves into thinking they're helping or something is imporivng when to any objective observer it clearly isn't

But as long as homeopathy is being sold by qualified professionals who should know better as a risk-free solution to almost any ill it's no wonder this sort of thing happens.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 30 Nov 2018 21:48:59 GMT

His words were 'now I just want to tell you, I've been treating this homeopathically'. Got the dog to roll over onto her back and she had multiple necrotic, infected mammary masses covered in pus. The vet I was with was in shock, dog was booked in for a bilateral mammary strip, can't remember the histo results.

I must have been about 14 or so at the time. I can still vividly remember that consultation to this day because of how shocked and angry I felt.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:26:54 GMT

Misrepresentation in any form has the potential for criminality. The problem is that few like to accuse fellow 'professionals' in a court situation.

i suspect more than a few judges and magistrates are taking homeopathic placebos therefore an uphill struggle as you have to demonstrate to them that it is a lot of tosh!

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Niall Taylor — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 09:36:29 GMT

It would also be good if vet homs could be banned from claiming or insinuating they can cure cancer, something which would be a criminal offence in human medicine.

Niall

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Iain Richards — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 08:59:15 GMT

Given the RCVS sensible stance on homeo etc, it would be good it they said homeopathic "qualifications" could not be used in conjunction with MRCVS. It can't happen, but it would be good.

RE: Underhand homeopathic tactics

Robert FalconerTaylor — Mon, 26 Nov 2018 09:03:28 GMT

In the same ballpark this

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/20/pet-psychics-telepathy