Withdrawal Disagreement

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Andreas Ege — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:17:58 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"](...)Nobody is saying 'build a wall'.(..)[/quote]

Being German I dare say we have heard that before.

"Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu bauen." (Nobody has the intention of building a wall.) Walter Ulbricht (first head of state of the late GDR), 15. Juni 1961. Guess what happened next?

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:01:25 GMT

They are closing the gate largely on their own citizens. Many Spanish cross the border into Gibraltar every day to work. As I understand it the pay and availability of work is better on the Gibraltarian side of the border.

The silly thing is that without the rancour and with years of friendly relations there would have been far less opposition to some form of joint control.

Small minded politicians trying to score points for their own political benefit.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 18:57:38 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

it's a problem for the EU, that's their problem).

[/quote]

That sort of neglect is what I'm hearing from people from Spain who don't care about Gibraltar. 'If they leave in terms we don't want, we close the gate, it's their problem after all'.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:58:55 GMT

Just about everybody from all sides says that there just isn't going to be a "hard" border. So the only question is how much of a problem the absence of a border would be for the United Kingdom. (If it's a problem for the EU, that's their problem). What needs to be worked out (and my guess is that many civil servants are working on it right now) is how to manage and fudge it.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 14:42:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]On the border between Switzerland and France there are border 'structures'. They were not manned when we were there but apparently on occasions are. they are there to disuade people from buying in Lidl (France) rather than Lidl (Switzerland) where prices are much higher due to tax differences. Not sure how it works in reality but our hosts seemed quite reluctant to shop over the border and risk being caught![/quote]As a frequent crosser, it seems to me the only reason the Swiss borders are manned is to collect CHF 40 for the motorway vignette!

Last time I drove from Belgium into France, and from Austria to Germany the year before, there were temporary customs posts on the autoroute/bahn almost certainly to look for terrorists/illegal immigrants.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 14:07:06 GMT

WRT to the Irish situation, I received this message from a member who said I could repost it anonymously.

I found it illuminating, and rather answers my question about why there is a problem recreating the hard border.

Northern Ireland was created so that Ireland could regain control of Ireland from Britain. It was an area that had had its indigenous people removed and supplanted by the British over centuries. The generations hence, of course, have every right to be there as much as the natives.

This, though, has always caused friction - very violent friction - from its inception. It led to a bitter civil war in Ireland in the 1920s, the memories of which are still felt. It led to discrimination against nationalist Irish in Northern Ireland by British civil services and by communities loyal to the UK.

The introduction of violence in the 1960s by paramilitary terrorists was aided by the ambivalence and ignorance of successive governments, culminating in the saddest, most objectionable and disgusting behaviours wrought in the name of nationalism by both nationalist and loyalist terrorists.

Crossing the border once it was established was not just an ordeal for 'terrorists' - families were routinely humiliated and bullied by soldiers for their amusement. Many innocent civilians were shot in error. Understandable when you think that many soldiers are kids in fear of their lives. However, the perception of the radicals was that this justified the killing of innocent women and children in the name of nationalism.

If you honestly think that a hard border won't have any effect on the Northern Irish [and hence Irish] community given its recent background, please rethink. A hard border goes against the Belfast Agreement,an agreement that was long wished for but unforeseeable for most of us and both physically and metaphorically removed the guns from Northern Irish politics.

If that agreement is breached unilaterally, it would not take a whole lot to fan the flames of terrorism again.

You are right about one thing - none of us would want this. Unfortunately, for all of us that are civilised, there are many that are not.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Niall Taylor — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 17:39:40 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]Let's start with who's going to build it?[/quote]

The Mexicans, surely!

Niall

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 13:13:25 GMT

The kneecapping and punishment shootings are (a far as I am aware) linked to behaviour such as drug dealing largely within a single community.

During the troubles soldiers and the 'other' side were often the targets but there were still punishment beatings etc.

Today this is criminal behaviour with little attempt to link it to a so called political fight.

I remember the days when everyone was wary and expecting to be bombed on the mainland. Now that fear is reserved for other extremist groups.

I cannot see any signs that there is a desire to go back to the bad old days. Much more important that people have jobs and money to spend.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:51:08 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The political situation has been very dodgy for several year but has not resulted in any form of return to the troubles. Perhaps that alone is the greatest indicator that politics in Northern Ireland have grown up.

[/quote]

I'm not too sure about it. Kneecapping and punish shootings seems to still be happening, tho this seems to be within their own communities rather than open war between sides.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:21:35 GMT

The old border posts were military because of the violence. Before that in some cases border posts were little more than a shed.

Of course people are going to head over a border to get cheaper shopping but it is organised smuggling that requires input from Customs and Excise just as now.

Nobody is saying 'build a wall'. It would cost too much and be unlikely to work. There has been a common travel area and unless someone does something absolutely crazy there still will be.

We live in an increasingly electronic world where our actions and our actions can be monitored more and more closely. Not quite 1984 though!

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Rob Loxley — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:53:37 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I also fail to see why some form of border is going to bring back the 'troubles'[/quote]

The political situation is not exactly great already - Stormont has now been suspended for getting on 2 years

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Beats — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:01:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Some form of photo ID is required to board any flight and ferries already.[/quote]

For clarity:

from P&O website:

"Cairnryan - Larne Larne - Cairnryan: Photographic ID is not required. However, a Photo ID is required for all adults (18+) on the Dublin/Liverpool route (Photo ID can be any card with name & photo e.g. club card, library card, gym cards - including recently expired) "

[quote user="Bob Russell"]a little problem with smuggling. [/quote]

a wee problem with smuggling if you wish to embrace the lingo

or "licensed anarchy" in the reported words of an English MP the other week (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/washing-powder-smuggling-an-issue-in-northern-ireland-brexit-committee-told-37453827.html)

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Beats — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:19:20 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I also don't understand why a hard border in Ireland is such a bad thing, how it could cause a return to the Troubles as some claim. Can anyone tell me?[/quote]

Well...

Let's start with who's going to build it?

Presumably not private contractors... (e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40776253)

Once you suss that, move on to:

Who's going to man it?

Then speculate on the political effect.

Then consider what started and perpetuated the "Troubles".

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

David Mills — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:42:24 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]I don't think there's anything controversial in this statement[/quote]

Apart from the over exaggeration of "crisis" (where?!), the bizarre and unsupported assumption that the far right will be empowered by Brexit (a naive, patronising leftyism that is propagated to ostracise upto 52% of the voting population; see Trump commentary in Lefty press for other examples), and the tired, worn, historically (repeatedly) disastrous undergraduate socialist diatribe at the end (would anyone seriously want Mcdonnel and Corbyn anywhere near economic regulation, or big business?!), no, I agree, its uncontroversial

The Left really do infantalise the Brexit conversation. I do wonder if its to do with principles trumping intelligence, or whether the latter is just generally lacking.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:24:04 GMT

But the border searches were to identify those carrying arms and detect car bombs. They were not there to tax someones shopping!

On the border between Switzerland and France there are border 'structures'. They were not manned when we were there but apparently on occasions are. they are there to disuade people from buying in Lidl (France) rather than Lidl (Switzerland) where prices are much higher due to tax differences. Not sure how it works in reality but our hosts seemed quite reluctant to shop over the border and risk being caught!

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

vs0u — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:12:19 GMT

[quote user="Silvia Maldonado"]"This is a crisis of inequality, poverty, the gradual abolition of democracy, of a corporate economy out of control. When frustration and anger like this have no outlet, no obvious means of remedy, then migrants and foreigners become easy targets [...] Needless to say, neither option will lead us to a better world. While leaving the EU could create a serious shock which empowers the far right, simply reversing the referendum will not undo the damage that's been done over many decades either. A second referendum which offers people the chance to remain could certainly be part of the solution. But that must be accompanied - in Britain as in so many other places - by a radical transformation of the economy in which governments constrain the power of corporations and finance, rewrite the rules of global trade, remove the power of the market altogether over big swaths of our society"[/quote]

I don't think there's anything controversial in this statement - we do have major problems with inequality and poverty, and that is what motivated a lot of people to vote for Brexit (especially those in deprived areas with EU money coming in but few immigrants). I know there are many problems with the EU - corruption and unaccountability especially - but I'm not sure that most ordinary people who voted Brexit were motivated by those reasons.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I also don't understand those calling for a second referendum. I mean, surely we have already proven what a bloody silly idea it is to put a decision over a 500 page document into the hands of people who can't even read, or don't have the time.[/quote]

agree, and as it said in the quote above, staying in the EU won't change the underlying issues that caused the Brexit vote

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I wish the original vote had not been to ask if we should be in or out, but instead to ask peoples preferences for the main issues: freedom of movement, justice, sovereignty etc, which I'm sure would have produced a much better and less divisive level of debate than the over simplistic yes/no.[/quote]

Yes completely agree with this!

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I also don't understand why a hard border in Ireland is such a bad thing, how it could cause a return to the Troubles as some claim. Can anyone tell me?[/quote]

I'm not Northern Irish so apologies if I get this wrong. Border searches have in the past been associated with discrimination and intimidation particularly of catholics. Thanks to the GFA people are now able to come and go without hindrance, which must be a massive relief to those who remember the old days. The idea of having a border reinstated and potentially having to be searched in order to go into what many see part of their own country would be difficult to accept for many Northern Irish people. Although this doesn't automatically mean violence would resume, there is still only a fragile peace and it's possible that some of the extremist groups would gain enough support to start off the violence again.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:29:06 GMT

I also fail to see why some form of border is going to bring back the 'troubles'.

Freedom of movement between the UK and Ireland by its citizens has never been controlled but is monitored to some degree via flight and ferry bookings. Some form of photo ID is required to board any flight and ferries already.

Most monitoring is going to be electronic as it is now. There are different VAT rates and duties already and they only cause a little problem with smuggling.

Technology is already there and can be updated/changed as required over time.

The border is already an international one and will stay that way.

There are lots of things that could have been done better but Cameron thought the answer would be to remain. The question would not have mattered. It showed how out of touch he and the EU were with many voters.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:50:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I also don't understand why a hard border in Ireland is such a bad thing, how it could cause a return to the Troubles as some claim. Can anyone tell me?

[/quote]

Would it help if we called it its real name? It's supposed to be the British border in Ireland, not a northern Ireland border since Ireland didn't want it there in the first place AFAIK.

[quote]

not qualified to make a judgement on something so complex, and they should not be asking me.

I wish the original vote had not been to ask if we should be in or out, but instead to ask peoples preferences for the main issues: freedom of movement, justice, sovereignty etc, which I'm sure would have produced a much better and less divisive level of debate than the over simplistic yes/no.

[/quote]

I agree with this.

That's why you pay your representatives.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:30:46 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I am afraid that we should be rejecting this deal rather than be in the pockets of EU leaders.[/quote]

I wish I understood why (May is claiming it restricts free movement, brings justice back to our courts etc, etc.) ... I just don't have time to read a 500 page document!

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The country is being held to ransom by a country with a population that I understand is roughly the same as Manchester. I am not sure that relations with the Irish Republic will ever be the same again.[/quote]

I also don't understand why a hard border in Ireland is such a bad thing, how it could cause a return to the Troubles as some claim. Can anyone tell me?

I also don't understand those calling for a second referendum. I mean, surely we have already proven what a bloody silly idea it is to put a decision over a 500 page document into the hands of people who can't even read, or don't have the time.

I certainly don't feel any better-informed now than I did then. I still instinctively think we will be a more successful country out than in, so would be inclined to vote that way. But actually, I think if there is another vote, I will probably abstain on the basis that I'm not qualified to make a judgement on something so complex, and they should not be asking me.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

David Mills — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:58:11 GMT

[quote user="Silvia Maldonado"]By Nick Dearden[/quote]

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/nick-dearden

Usual ilinformed bien pensant lefty tripe about brexit. Mr Dearden is hardly known for his balanced, academic, well-researched pieces on Brexit, government, or indeed life.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Silvia Maldonado — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 00:22:27 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Silvia Maldonado"]

You can find the whole article in here

[/quote]

From Al Jazeera

[/quote]

By Nick Dearden

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

David Mills — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 13:55:50 GMT

[quote user="Silvia Maldonado"]

An interesting opinion about the Brexit from outside an UK/EU media:

"This is a crisis of inequality, poverty, the gradual abolition of democracy, of a corporate economy out of control. When frustration and anger like this have no outlet, no obvious means of remedy, then migrants and foreigners become easy targets [...] Needless to say, neither option will lead us to a better world. While leaving the EU could create a serious shock which empowers the far right, simply reversing the referendum will not undo the damage that's been done over many decades either. A second referendum which offers people the chance to remain could certainly be part of the solution. But that must be accompanied - in Britain as in so many other places - by a radical transformation of the economy in which governments constrain the power of corporations and finance, rewrite the rules of global trade, remove the power of the market altogether over big swaths of our society"

You can find the whole article in here

[/quote]

From Al Jazeera

This catastrophising of the situation is at best a waste of time and at worst just unhelpful. How many times have we heard how bad it all is or going to be? Or the post haste overanalysis of the root cause? The key point is no one knows.

As for the current deal, I doubt it will be the final one. But as it is, a no deal is better. Showing that we are willing to walk away might stir the Three Amigos from their bubbles (and if not, the producers of those bubbles certainly will)

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:50:59 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Spain wining about Gibraltar whilst holding on to a tiny patch of Northern Africa.

[/quote]

Whether I agree with the Gibraltar situation or not, the pressures we are seeing are the same that brought the referendum to the UK in 2016.

The Spanish government needs to blame someone for their own failures, and the Withdrawal agreement comes at the best time to sell the nationalistic rhetoric to the Spaniards.

Regional elections in Andalucía in December and a minority government, unelected and relying on coalitions.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Bob Russell — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 12:06:17 GMT

I am afraid that we should be rejecting this deal rather than be in the pockets of EU leaders.

The country is being held to ransom by a country with a population that I understand is roughly the same as Manchester. I am not sure that relations with the Irish Republic will ever be the same again.

Spain whining about Gibraltar whilst holding on to a tiny patch of Northern Africa.

None of these things are negotiable so perhaps it is time to accept the ride may be bumpy and just get on with it.

RE: Withdrawal Disagreement

Silvia Maldonado — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 02:45:59 GMT

An interesting opinion about the Brexit from outside an UK/EU media:

You can find the whole article in here