Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:29:31 GMT

I was rather exaggerating Arlo I must admit , and I still experience what is generally unintentional sexism in the vet world from some quarters although ageism is thrown into the mix now too!

Re pay in practice , a lack of vets certainly means practices are desperate to recruit but if you neglect to pay your existing vets comparably then you are creating resentment which will manifest itself in all sorts of ways. It creates low morale, loss of productivity and loss of good vet employees so it’s a very shortsighted move however desperate you are to recruit. This is not new ,this has always been the case when you want to secure a good vet, you just have to make sure you do the right thing or it will bite you in the bum . The enlightened small business employer will make sure there is parity even if they have to increase the fees There will always be some who underpays their loyal long-standing vet because they think they can get away with it and then wonder why that vet leaves and maybe this lack of being valued for loyalty and hard work is contributing to vets leaving practice. Maybe agreeable personalities who are great team players but are not very competitive and demanding are more likely to be treated that way and vote with their feet but do not demand equal pay.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 17:04:43 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

.Arlo , my first disagree ! I’m wounded ...not . I understand that you want to promote discussion but still think promoting it with

’come and discuss this you sexist pigs , you’re all in denial ‘ might not be the best way to go about it. [/quote]

Laughed out loud. That wasn't quite what I wrote, of course!

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I think I’m very qualified to talk about sexism in the vet world. I was the first full time woman vet in both the mixed practices I first worked in and sexism was rife, from some vets , all male because they were all men at that time , and both men and women clients. I couldn’t get a loan to buy into a practice without my fathers guarantee because I was a woman. When I was elected to RCVS I was told several times it was only because I was a woman and once this was by a woman academic. When I went to buy a car as a practice owner I was ignored and then told to ask my husband to come and choose one. [/quote]

I was going to say that I don't think anyone thinks such acute gender discrimination still goes on. Except .... it feels like only yesterday you were on Council. Only a few years ago, anyway.

And I wonder if those who say that gender discrimination is a thing of the past really mean such-overt-gender-discrimination is a thing of the past. Michael Woodhouse? Curious.

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]This discussion should be about changing disparity in pay and how to do that.[/quote]

Not just pay disparity ... the survey did seem to indicate bias in other areas too. I'd be interested to submit a 'Mark' and 'Elizabeth' CV in response to 100 job adverts, with 'Elizabeth' in child-bearing range, and see who gets invited to more interviews.

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"] I would have thought transparency was the key then everyone would know what was being paid, for what and to whom. [/quote]

Absolutely agree, transparency is the ideal, and I am sure society is headed that way. I think the hardest thing is change. So for example, there will be those in practice now who have not renegotiated in some time. Practice needs to recruit and market conditions are such that they have to pay new recruit more. If they pay more, come clean and pay existing staff more, that could cause a really big problem, no?

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:15:22 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I would have thought transparency was the key then everyone would know what was being paid , for what and to whom. [/quote]

Sorry to turbo but that's what we did and not a murmur from any of the vets, male or female.

Not surprising, 'cos it was totally unbiased and totally fair!

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:01:54 GMT

.Arlo , my first disagree ! I’m wounded ...not . I understand that you want to promote discussion but still think promoting it with

’come and discuss this you sexist pigs , you’re all in denial ‘ might not be the best way to go about it.

I think I’m very qualified to talk about sexism in the vet world. I was the first full time woman vet in both the mixed practices I first worked in and sexism was rife, from some vets , all male because they were all men at that time , and both men and women clients. I couldn’t get a loan to buy into a practice without my fathers guarantee because I was a woman. When I was elected to RCVS I was told several times it was only because I was a woman and once this was by a woman academic. When I went to buy a car as a practice owner I was ignored and then told to ask my husband to come and choose one. I might consider myself a victim several times over but I think that counterproductive, would make me feel weaker and demeans women vets. We are intelligent and educated and we are in the majority so yes let’s call it out, but without silencing the majority of the male vets, for whom saying anything at all in such an arena appears risky, leaving only the very vocal still speaking.

So yes discrimination still exists and sadly I’m not surprised by the published BVA results. Employers clearly do still erroneously use gender as a selector although in my 30 years as an employer gender is definitely not reflective of how productive and committed a vet is to their job. Some vets do 100% and some do as little as they can get away with , and that’s both sexes , it’s more to do with personality and work ethic .

This discussion should be about changing disparity in pay and how to do that. I would have thought transparency was the key then everyone would know what was being paid , for what and to whom.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:22:02 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Maybe the "worst" veterinary surgeon was eight times more ethical than the "best" ? [/quote]

Again, an unquantified opinion, and an easy one to explain more work and more diligent but I think the figures flagged a probable excess.

Again, and with measurement, we discovered one vet who did so many more dentals than anyone else [as mentioned] and another [good orthopod] who "hated dentals" and his figures showed that well....

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 11:46:55 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]Discussing these issues at BVA congress streams at LVS, conducting studies, writing articles etc. is all very well to raise awareness, but it's you and I in practice that need to actively work to right these wrongs.[/quote]

Er, that's what I was expounding, or trying to, and nobody yet has commented on my method of just measuring output or whatever anyone thinks are significant indicators of "worth" or "value" to a practice.

There are so many easily accurately quantified measurements within modern PMSs thus avoiding "assessment" or "opinion" which are open to all sorts of erroneous bias.

I suppose there is a bit of a split because [and from experience] you can get a very popular vet who, you discover, doesn't charge for everything or reduces fees for no good reason.

[In our old PMS it was possible for anyone to edit any fee at will...... and it often happened]

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:47:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]For instance the "best" vet did three to eight times the dentals per 100 contacts than the worst![/quote]

Maybe the "worst" veterinary surgeon was eight times more ethical than the "best" ?

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:42:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Michael Woodhouse - I'm wondering what the statistical probability is that in a group of 260 participants, where 114 of them did not think gender discrimination was a problem and discriminated financially, what the odds are that the 114 also happened to be tighter?[/quote]

We don't know that. If a couple of central london practices who may like men had offered massive salaries then that would hugely skew the data and be shown in a decent analysis. We don't know that so, as it stands, I'm unwilling to get into discussion. Especially when you give us the poison chalice of 'if you don't believe it then you are the problem'.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Michael Woodhouse would you agree that as a broad generalisation and on balance, men have an advantage over women in the veterinary workplace (as in many others)? [/quote]

Men MAY have an advantage over women in the workplace but lets not use crap science as the talking point. I genuinely expect this is largely a thing of the past, but then this study says I'm the problem. See my impass?

1. Prove there is a problem, then we can talk about it. I'm pretty cross at the BVA and Vet Futures for putting this out as it is. I've asksed BVA and the 2 authors for the raw data and then maybe we can see.

Era of evidence based medicine and all that.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Liz Barton — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:13:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Surely the real value in the study is in starting a discussion about how to eliminate bias and ensure a level playing field.[/quote]

Exactamundo! This community has spent most of this thread discussing whether or not we should believe this particular study, vs. discussing the VERY REAL issue of gender discrimination in the workplace, and how WE can all ensure we have a fully supported, maximally productive, happy workforce. A workforce that might, in that instance, stick around rather than leave the profession.

Shoot me down in flames if you like, but I'm talking about genuine issues that CAN be addressed and dealt with if we a) admit they exist and b) address them in our own workplaces from the top down as well as the bottom up.

Discussing these issues at BVA congress streams at LVS, conducting studies, writing articles etc. is all very well to raise awareness, but it's you and I in practice that need to actively work to right these wrongs.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:39:20 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]never mentioned gender did I?[/quote]

Richard Carter - so sorry, I completely misread your post!

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]The way this is reported seems to me to deliberately close down debate. I’m sure there is discrimination which may be conscious or unconscious but still needs to change , but we need to be able to talk about it without people being told they are “ part of the problem”. They are the very people who need to engage in the discussion and not be put on the defensive. [/quote]

Clare, you know I normally agree with pretty much everything you say (), but on this ...

The reason I used the 'If you don't recognise there's a problem, then you are the problem' line was because I think it IS thought-provoking; because unless one is a bit hard-hitting about it all, then you'd equally likely find that people won't bother talking about it at all. Plus of course, it IS what the results showed.

Two things strike me about the discussion so far. One is the question of productivity. I gather it was even raised at the presentation by some bloke who asked why he should pay his female vets as much as his more productive male vets (sucks teeth).

I'm curious how common it is for vets' pay to be performance-related, because Anthony Todd, these ...

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Do female vets do more/ charge more than males?

Do female vets have more time off or off sick?

Do female vets work harder/longer?

Do female vets get discriminated against by clients?[/quote]

seem to me to be such crude measures that they are as likely to cause discrimination than prevent it. Anyway, aren't questions like 'do female vets charge more' more indicative of bad management.

If you try to make them more precise, by asking more questions, I suspect you'd end up spending more time trying to analyse employee performance than almost anything else.

Anyway, I just wonder if there should be LESS monitoring of productivity, not more of it. In other words, the minimum criteria are set. If you go below those minimum, then there are questions asked. Leave it at that.

(Not sure if that makes any sense, but just throwing the question out there).

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The other issue is why people were only shown 1 appraisal and asked once to offer a salary. What if the tighter bosses happened to be in the group shown the lady's appraisal? Nothing was done to correct for that. It's shockingly bad science. We are not in a place where we can draw any conclusions.[/quote]

Michael Woodhouse - I'm wondering what the statistical probability is that in a group of 260 participants, where 114 of them did not think gender discrimination was a problem and discriminated financially, what the odds are that the 114 also happened to be tighter?

Besides that, my reading of the results was those who paid the woman less also:

"rated "Mark" as significantly more competent than "Elizabeth". Specifically, that they would be more likely to let "Mark" take on more managerial responsibilities, more strongly encourage him to pursue promotions and be more likely to advise other vets to look to "Mark" as a valuable source of knowledge."

Michael Woodhouse would you agree that as a broad generalisation and on balance, men have an advantage over women in the veterinary workplace (as in many others)?

No? Then you think small business owners no longer factor in pregnancy when they decide who to employ? That's just one example which I would find very, very hard to believe. You don't think employers make a salary based on preconceived notions of productivity differences? What about the man who shouted out the question at the presentation? OK, n=1, but I'll bet he isn't the only one.

Yes? Then you would agree that discrimination occurs at some level. If it does, then is it worth spending time arguing over the study, and whether or not it is accurate +/- some margin of error.

Surely the real value in the study is in starting a discussion about how to eliminate bias and ensure a level playing field.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Chris Milligan — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 05:06:13 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]one a Professor of organisational psychology who I presumed would be more familiar with the appropriate application of stats [/quote]

Whatever gave you that idea ;)

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Chris Milligan — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 05:01:11 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] 'My dog doesn't like men' [/quote]

I definitely encounter this a lot.

I think I was struggling to explain what I meant by clients preferring to see men - I didn't mean more clients prefer to see men than women, I meant there is a demographic (usually older women in my experience) that when given a choice between vets will pick the male vet. This demographic may be very small. I can't speak for whether female vets perceive there is a group that specifically like to see them (I'm sure there is).

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 00:38:27 GMT

So, in a way, you could reinforce your own stereotypes by analysing your own data. This study was randomised giving bosses EXACTLY the same performance appraisal, and merely changing the gender, and still there was a big difference.

[sorry couldn't get the quote thingy to work]

Depends what you mean by "performance appraisal" though!

If your appraisal is in anyway subjective rather than simple measurements then, obviously and of course, the results will be biased, as I tried to expound!

If you record parameters such as total consults, total dentals, lab test numbers referral numbers or total "requests" or "refusals" ie "Can I see Mr X or I'd like to see Judith and I don't want to see John Smith" etc. this gives you objective parameters totally free of bias, prejudice, or opinion.

We did this for some years and, as I said, the best and worst were female and the differences were staggering.

For instance the "best" vet did three to eight times the dentals per 100 contacts than the worst!

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 22:31:09 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I hope I'm not misreading this, but I also hope we are not falling (again) for the mistake of awarding better contractual conditions based on what employees do when they should be at home.[/quote]

The work's to be done. As long as the burden is shared then yes reward those who go above and beyond. It's not a job that means you can lock the door at 6pm.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 22:02:35 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

Can think of 3 vets in the last 7 years who would be walking out the door at 6pm regardless of who was bleeding in the waiting room. One would even go so far as, when leaving, mentioning to the reception a patient had been admitted for more work up, bye...

In the same breath I can think of another 3 that would work into am hours trying to save something and not think this was exceptional behaviour. Hence my comment that for some people, work is not their main priority.

and this may be reflected in managers awarding pay rises

[/quote]

I hope I'm not misreading this, but I also hope we are not falling (again) for the mistake of awarding better contractual conditions based on what employees do when they should be at home.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:56:01 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]This study was randomised giving bosses EXACTLY the same performance appraisal, and merely changing the gender, and still there was a big difference.[/quote]

No, no, no. Without some statistical analysis we don't know that. Comparing means with no descriptions of the populations is meaningless. We had to do T-tests at secondary school.

We are not remotely in a position to show any difference.

The other issue is why people were only shown 1 appraisal and asked once to offer a salary. What if the tighter bosses happened to be in the group shown the lady's appraisal? Nothing was done to correct for that. It's shockingly bad science. We are not in a place where we can draw any conclusions.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Liz Barton — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:43:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Either Susanne does more in a day or month than Simon or vice versa[/quote]

Yes. BUT (there it is again), if Susanne (or Simon for that matter) is negatively discriminated against this may CAUSE her to be less productive and underachieve compared to her potential. So the objective data may show her (or him) to be less productive BECAUSE of discrimination. Versus if there was no discrimination, the objective performance parameters would improve because she is more confident and productive in the workplace.

[quote user="Beats"](https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/P-ValueStatement.pdf)[/quote]

Last time I looked at stats was at Uni 20 years ago (yawn!). Thanks for the update.

[quote user="David Mills"]This is nonsense. A p value doesn't mean this.[/quote]

I stand corrected. I'm directly quoting the researchers - one a Professor of organisational psychology who I presumed would be more familiar with the appropriate application of stats - in my statements above. Either way, I thought this was an elegant, nicely conducted study.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

David Mills — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:01:31 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]The P values were highly significant (<0.005), so we have at least a 95% confidence of the findings.[/quote]

This is nonsense. A p value doesn't mean this.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Beats — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:19:05 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]There was talk of the small sample size, which is precisely why they analysed it statistically. The P values were highly significant (<0.005), so we have at least a 95% confidence of the findings.[/quote]

I haven't read the study in question, and appreciate it may be excellent with valid conclusions, and a much more detailed statistical analysis including the raw data to allow transparency etc.

However citing a p<0.05 most certainly dose NOT give me 95% confidence in the authors findings, whatever they may be.

(https://www.amstat.org/asa/files/pdfs/P-ValueStatement.pdf)

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

bob lehner — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 15:00:02 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"] there are certainly a lot of clients that prefer to see a male vet.[/quote]

I don't agree with this - my experience in recent years is that clients often ask for a female vet 'My dog doesn't like men' is quite a common one to hear. In fact I can't remember the last time I heard a SA client specifically ask for a male vet.

(Or qute possibly they just don't want to see me I suppose...).

Tho' I suspect some male preference does still occur with FA and to a lesser extent Eq clients.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:02:36 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]Because feeling valued and having confidence are directly linked to productivity and performance, if you have an employer who discriminates negatively against any part of the workforce, that part of the workforce is likely to under-perform compared to their capability and potential.[/quote]

I don't see how anyone, [even an employer....] can discriminate if using objective measurements and, of course, extrapolate to anything you like which mostly will just be excuses or "reasons".

[Simon is a very slow surgeon "because he lacks confidence" is a reason not a measurement....

Either Susanne does more in a day or month than Simon or vice versa.

Sticking to hard cold parameters is the only way to be unarguable, objective, and accurate.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Liz Barton — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:47:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]analyse your data and produce, not opinion or predjudice or gut feelings or impressions, but some hard bleeding evidence![/quote]

Absolutely, but... and it's a big BUT...

Because feeling valued and having confidence are directly linked to productivity and performance, if you have an employer who discriminates negatively against any part of the workforce, that part of the workforce is likely to under-perform compared to their capability and potential.

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

easy307 — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:50:11 GMT

www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Anthony Todd — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:38:34 GMT

Why, on earth, in this day and age with computers and loads of time don't some of you [I've already done it] analyse your data and produce, not opinion or prejudice or gut feelings or impressions, but some hard bleeding evidence!

Do female vets do more/ charge more than males?

Do female vets have more time off or off sick?

Do female vets work harder/longer?

Do female vets get discriminated against by clients?

Etc ad nauseum.

But then we'll have a bit of an inkling!

RE: Gender Discrimination - if you don't think it's a problem... think again!

Chris Milligan — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:44:06 GMT

[quote user="Liz Barton"]but also skills and competence.[/quote]

I think clients are perhaps a part of this perception - I'm not sure if it works the other way round but there are certainly a lot of clients that prefer to see a male vet. The female colleagues I work with seem to encounter a lot more of the "are you old enough to be a vet..." and "how long have you been doing this" than their male counterparts which is, of course, shameful.