Debt Collectors

Re: Debt Collectors

Karen Eggleton — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:14:04 GMT

As a new practice, just about to write my first letter threatening debt collection (so on to nasty, stage 2) Anyone got any standard worded letters that I can pinch?

Re: Debt Collectors

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:54:50 GMT

[quote user="Gordon McLean"]Lets face it if they go to Tescos they will pay before leaving or be arrested by the Police for shop lifting - and the difference is ?[/quote]

I think you know that one difference is that if they are in Tesco and don't pay they can always just leave their trolleyload of stuff and walk out.

A naughty cynical thought has just occurred to me. Perhaps I might not want to put my bad debtors on a database for my neighbours. That would mean my neighbours could refuse to take them on and I'd be stuck with them forever coming back to me.

Re: Debt Collectors

Gordon McLean — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:23:53 GMT

Hi Richard

You made some very interesting points that amaze me as a small business owner. Why does the equine veterinary profession consider non payment of bills as a way of life ? It seems to me that a vast swathe of equestrian people view the vet account as a moving feast selecting service based on the status of their vet account is at any given time.

Vetdebts is very much about the prevention rather than the cure hence the development of a database to track debtors moving from one practice to another. I agree totally with your take credit card details approach and would add:

1. Have a very clear “take on” process and require proof of address in the form of two utility bills or similar before an account is opened. IF your a member of Vetdebts check the client against the database to make sure they have not just arrived from another practice owing money and if so go in eyes open !!

I can not stress enough how important accurate address information is if you want to chase a client through the courts. The number of vets I have spoken to who have a very haphazard approach to this is amazing - you can’t rent a dvd without this sorted why expect vet treatment ?

2. Absolutely take a payment on a card but be very careful how you store the clients card details - this is a hot topic under data protection and you could write a book on the security measures you need in place. IF you cant encrypt the details and are caught the repercussions could be disastrous (ie remove of card service, court, massive chargebacks to name a few)

3. I agree on the subject of debt collectors - what sanction do they have ? We added the solicitors letter as part of our database service simply because the only legal sanction is court and the threat will work with some inexperienced debtors. My wish image is we make being on the Vetdebts database so bad that the solicitors letter can be dropped or scaled back dramatically. Imagine the impact on a client when the 10 local vet practices receive a mail warning them about the debt they owe to XYZ vets - tricky to get treatment at best !

4. I am not a vet so I don’t know practicalities, but how many horse riders call the vet with absolutely no cards or money with them? Is it realistic to take a form that is filled in with card details and signed by the rider from which you obtain payment or an authority for payment ? OR if they can call you then they can call a relative who can provide a valid card for treatment ?

5. As part of your terms of business ensure that the pet owner is very clear that it is their responsibility to pay for all treatment regardless of whether their insurers pay and what sanctions you will take if they don’t. Posting this on your web site, in your surgery and providing it at sign up will be more than adequate for a court

Ultimately I guess ask yourself why are you giving credit in the first place? People have credit cards and calling a vet is a paying opportunity they are well aware of. Lets face it if they go to Tescos they will pay before leaving or be arrested by the Police for shop lifting - and the difference is ?

Best wishes

Re: Debt Collectors

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:13:42 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"] but assume it has to do with the fact that we have to pay the VAT on the bill owing while they think about paying it[/quote]

Not if you're on cash accounting for VAT.

Re: Debt Collectors

Hanna Bennett — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:18:40 GMT

JGW

I'm not the accountant, but assume it has to do with the fact that we have to pay the VAT on the bill owing while they think about paying it, so at least this balances it out.

(Ms) Bennett

Re: Debt Collectors

J G Wray — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:21:24 GMT

Dear Mr Stephenson,

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]The next stage is to fill in a Small Claims Court Form and send the debtor a copy. If the debtor is inexperienced this will worry them enough to bring about payment. No point in actually sending it to the SCC as you have to pay a fee and if things go that far you won't get a penny back.[/quote]

Have you tried

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

I have just done our end of year debts. A good target for written off debt, in my opinion, is <0.5% of turnover. What is it in equine practice?

Yours sincerely,

JGW

Re: Debt Collectors

J G Wray — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:17:54 GMT

Dear Ms Bennett,

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]oh, and they get one (polite) letter to tell them their account is owing and they will be charged an accounting fee for not paying on the day (£10 + vat),[/quote]

Why do you put VAT on a credit charge? There is no added value to the transaction, no service or goods supplied.

Yours sincerely,

JGW

Re: Debt Collectors

Richard Stephenson — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:17:23 GMT

Dear Ian,

Being in Equine Practice unpaid bills seem to be a way of life and we have to take steps to try and protect ourselves from the many repeat offenders out there.

Before visiting a new client we ask for either a Credit Card number and an upfront deposit (usually £80) OR £80 in cash. We find this sorts out the no intention of ever paying from the genuine.

Secondly we don't use outside debt collectors - they can do little more than you can yourself. So we have our own shadow debt collecting business, with its own letter head, telephone number and box number. In fact it is run by our own accounts department. If your debtors doesn't already have CC judgements against them then a letter from a debt collector will often bring in the cash. Simultaneous to this we send a formal letter 'sacking' the client as required by the Guide to Prof Conduct. Their account is marked as no further work - and we enforce that.

The next stage is to fill in a Small Claims Court Form and send the debtor a copy. If the debtor is inexperienced this will worry them enough to bring about payment. No point in actually sending it to the SCC as you have to pay a fee and if things go that far you won't get a penny back.

We find that this works for most cases - but the hardened debtors know all the tricks and you are simply wasting time and effort.

With bigger 'commercial' debts we will go as far as the County Court but the law favours the debtor and as far as I can see if you really don't want to pay a bill in this Country there is nothing that can make you!

Hope that helps,

Richard Stephenson.

Crown Inn Farm.

Re: Debt Collectors

Dexter Smith — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:27:28 GMT

Dear Gordon

Thank you for your prompt and re-assuring responses. Sorry for any offence, or implication that the site was dodgy but you can't be too careful on the net now can you! And sorry I didn't email you direct, but I figured that if you suspect a site, the last thing you should do is supply them with an email address to trawl the web for your data with!

It is a cracking idea and it is high time that someone helped the profession take a stand against the pondlife - the habitual bad debtors who we all know comprise, almost to a man, the "won't pays" rather than the genuine "can't pays". I will be signing up forthwith!

Incidentally, you mentioned in an earlier post that you would like all our debtors entered on. We have a large list going back to 1990 (and yes - we do get a few who are stupid enough to think that we forget!). I doubt many are actionable, but they would be worthy additions to your Database of Shame.

Kind regards

Dexter

Re: Debt Collectors

Gordon McLean — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:46:39 GMT

Hi Dexter - just joined the forum so missed this and the old thread !!

Arlo picked up on your post earlier, so I have replied to his link and wont bore everyone with another great sales pitch suffice to say vetdebts is very much alive and well!!

Https - (for those not in the know this is a secure socket and encrypts the data sent from the browser to the server - meaning its can't be intercepted by a hacker) In a public site this would not be appropriate as it slows the site down a lot. We did hum and har about the idea of using an SSL certificate inside the site ie after clients logged in but thus far concluded that as the data was not highly sensitive and the security generally good we would wait and see. In light of your concern about this we will re look at the problem as its realitively easy to resolve and may offer a better level of reassurance for those concerned.

We take your point about the fee structure and how its dealt with on our site. As mentioned to Arlo we will review this over the weekend and make it a lot more obvious. Essentially our fee is £10 per full time equivallent vet. We felt that is was important to equate the fee to a vet on a proportionate basis as they attract the debts, so 2.5 vets = £25 per month. This provides you with full access to the search and 2 solicitors letters sent each of your debtors. It provides our solicitors with a fee that is proportionate to the somtimes HUGE number of letters some vets require sending. Incidentally we take the view that all debts should be put on the system regardless of age - if they are real then add them.

PHISHING - We most certinaly are not in the business of phishing perish the thought !!

(again for uninitiated via Wikipedia - In the field of computer security, phishing is the criminally fraudulent process of attempting to acquire sensitive information such as usernames, passwords and credit card details by masquerading as a trustworthy entity in an electronic communication - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing)

We provide you with login details to our site, we do not ask for any bank information or personal details for you or your business. Importantly any monies we collect are 100% yours, we take no cut whatsoever. IF the debtor wants to pay by card we will take details and these will be sent securely to the vet for processing via their PDQ machine - we do not take this money ourselves and certainly dont take cash.

I hope this clarifies your points and appreciate your concerns, I believe them to be very valid and hope we can improve our site in light of your comments. Look forward to speaking to you and hope you can join us.

Best wishes
Gordon McLean

Re: Debt Collectors

Gordon McLean — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:54:36 GMT

Hey Arlo - thanks for keeping us on our toes and your subsequent post. I guess we are looking forward to a weekend of remedial web site changes so watch this space for an update.

As for the Vetdebts concept, the idea is pretty simple - prevention is better than cure, but a bit of both will go a long way to eradicate the irritating problem of debtors.

On the subject of frequently asked questions one of the main ones is "What about data protection ?" We spent a lot of time, in fact, months working with the information commissioners office to get a written response to the question "Can vets share account information ?" - provided its done correctly the answer is yes and this quote from the ICO response is, I think, very relevant to subject as a whole:

“It is important to bear in mind that the Act does not exist to shield people from their financial responsibilities but simply requires appropriate safeguards to be implemented to ensure fair treatment. As all vets have a clear, legitimate interest in minimising their exposure to bad debt, this interest will provide an alternative condition for processing, where proportionate information sharing, involving limited privacy intrusion is proposed.”

In essence information may be shared provided it is proportionate, accurate and in the event the situation changes the data is amended appropriately.

I suppose fundamentally we believe we have developed radically new, fixed low cost approach to the subject of debt collection in veterinary practices. By using our tools the vet community as a whole can work together with the benefit of our solicitors to deal with this perennial problem. Owing your vet should, with a bit of luck, become a thing of the past.

We will look forward to participating in this forum and will read with interest your forth coming article.

Best wishes - Gordon McLean

Re: Debt Collectors

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:04:14 GMT

[quote user="Dexter Smith"] Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but has anyone tried, or is anyone using VetDebts (at www.vetdebts.co.uk) Have had a brief spin through the site - which is not https on the front end anyway, or when you go to the registration page, and as far as I can see gives no indication of fees until you join, at £10 pm. Have tried the FAQ page, but it just loops - a whole list of Frequently Asked Questions, but no Frequently Supplied Answers![/quote]

Well, I got a lightning-fast reply to my email to vetdebts.co.uk: a charming bloke called Gordon Maclean (who set up the service) rang within about five minutes. Very apologetic about the FAQs, which they are fixing immediately, and the telephone, which had a fault.

Anyway, yes this is a bona fide service. It was launched last year and they exhibited at the London Vet Show (I've checked the exhibitor list, and they are on it). Also, he tells me that to use the word 'vet' in a registered trademark requires sign off from the RCVS.

Gordon and the co-founder of this service, Lee McNeil, are programmers who hit upon the idea after hearing their local vet grumble about pet owners not paying bills. Essentially, what they've done is create a database system on which you can all pool details of bad debtors, so a client can't just leave a bill unpaid and then go and pull the same trick at another nearby practice. They also chase bad debt, through a network of solicitors.

Importantly, they don't collect the debt into their own bank account, and take a huge cut. They pay it direct to you. Access to the database plus debt chasing is included in the monthly subscription.

I'll be running a more in-depth news story on this later. Meantime, invited Gordon and Lee to join VetSurgeon and they might explain a bit more, or a bit better than I have.

Re: Debt Collectors

Clive Ansell — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:08:33 GMT

One night on call last week a colleague agreed to see a client OOH with no money, to PTS an collapsed old dog. Nothing was paid at the time, but they offered to pay £5 a month. The next day they telephoned to request an individual cremation with return of ashes, and guess what, they had the £160 cash to pay for it. It was pointed out this would only be done if the whole account was settled immediately, they paid by credit card over the telephone.

It seems there are those that can't pay and those that don't want if they can help it.

Re: Debt Collectors

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:18:44 GMT

I thought that looked like an interesting idea too. Looks legit (but then so do many things!).

I had the same problem with the Frequently Ignored Questions (I thought it might be a browser issue, but it didn't work in any I tried).

Also tried ringing the company at 9:15, first selecting the option for vets, then pet owner. Both rang for a long time before going to an answering machine. Not what you would call impressive.

Looking at the non-existent posts in their own support forum, I guess this is a start up which hasn't quite got its act together yet. I'll try ringing them again later today and let you know how I get on.

Re: Debt Collectors

Dexter Smith — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:51:52 GMT

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but has anyone tried, or is anyone using VetDebts (at www.vetdebts.co.uk) Have had a brief spin through the site - which is not https on the front end anyway, or when you go to the registration page, and as far as I can see gives no indication of fees until you join, at £10 pm. Have tried the FAQ page, but it just loops - a whole list of Frequently Asked Questions, but no Frequently Supplied Answers!

Seems on the face of it a good idea, if not too expensive.

Is it a legitimate site, or just a phishing site?

Re: Debt Collectors

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:08:04 GMT

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. We already mark cards in bright red, send red letters and refuse treatment in extreme cases. I have tried small claims court and find that the threat of court often works but if I have to pay money to get the process started then even with a judgement, I am wasting my time and money. I am trying a European Payment Order at the moment for a client who has moved to France owing money (I will pay it when my house sale goes through - yeah right).

I will look into the bailiff option, or at least a debt collectors that is a little more proactive and on-the-ground. No point in sending more letters to be ignored.

Thanks again, Ian

Re: Debt Collectors

Hanna Bennett — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:00:20 GMT

along the lines of that last quote - 'it's your fault if my dog dies cos you won't treat it for free (cos i'm on benefits and expect everything for free anyway!)'

Re: Debt Collectors

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:30:13 GMT

Once somebody fails to pay, your glass is already half empty. But I try to pursue at least a bit further than is worth it, because I want to keep that reputation. Needless to say, pursue soon and keep up the pressure.

If one agency fails, I generally then send the debt to another, and sometimes another after that.

I wouldn't use a firm that wants an advance fee. Not worth it. Let them take a big cut from whatever they can collect.

Solicitors: all they can do is write a succession of letters and then recommend legal action.

Big debt-collection firms like P&J: essentially they do the same as solicitors but just occasionally they can get good results; I'm not sure why. Possibly it's the timing and the wording. They have extracted payment from horse owners once or twice.

The small claims court is no use. Some debts are not big enough, you have to pay a fee, you probably get judgement but you are no nearer actually collecting the money. If a private person (unlike a business) simply refuses to pay up there is no practical way of extracting the money. (Once I got a tip-off as to where the bloke was working, and got an attachment of earnings order. He simply left the job.)

For most small animal debts, there's nothing better than somebody knocking on doors, persistently. In my younger days I used to do it myself, but it's very tedious and time-consuming. Now I use a local firm of licensed bailiffs. They are not particularly energetic (why would they be, when they weigh up their time and travel against likely returns?) but they get a bit back and they let the debtor know I haven't forgotten them.

Cultivate a reputation as a real mean b******d. Don't let people walk out with stuff; you can't "take back" your consultation or your surgery, but you can at least hold on to the pills until they are paid for.

Bad debts are very very depressing. I wonder if they contribute to the veterinary suicide rate.

"I thought you were supposed to like animals but all you care about is the money"

Re: Debt Collectors

beldather — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:36:02 GMT

My old boss in Aus, basically chased one guy down the theft of services route, finally managed to get a warrant out for his arrest . My boss left it at that.

Not sure if that's possible in the UK.

Regards

Blair

Re: Debt Collectors

Hanna Bennett — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:38:17 GMT

oh, and they get one (polite) letter to tell them their account is owing and they will be charged an accounting fee for not paying on the day (£10 + vat), then one (nasty) letter telling them if they don't pay up in 1 month we will send the debt collectors (above mentioned large lads) round to collect payment!

Re: Debt Collectors

Hanna Bennett — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:36:55 GMT

We employ two large-ish looking lads (wouldn't hurt a fly really!) who spend a day a week knocking on folks doors and asking for money. This has the benefit of embarrassing people in front of their neighbours (amazing how many people pay up because of this!) and also reminding them that we are still chasing our money. Have the occasional client who has gone down the CCJ route but agree with above that the amount of money you get awarded is pennies - had one awarded £5 monthly on a £1000 bill!

We find the best method of debt collection is prevention! We don't do credit except in exceptional circumstances, and we ask for a deposit on every animal that is hospitalised (£100) which we find helps find those people who tell you money is no object cos they've no intention of paying. If the animal is hospitalised for any length of time we ask for interim payments too - we have a notice clearly stating this as practice policy in our waiting room. Think this has massively reduced our bad debts in that now they are smallish bills rather than huge ones.

Bad debtors are flagged up on our computer system and we refuse any further treatment unless paid for at the time.

Re: Debt Collectors

Robert Whiteford — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:56:23 GMT

Ian, you MUST have a system so that you can "mark their card". We use local debt collectors who also happen to be Sheriff's Officers (dont know if these exist in England). Those habitual debtors never pay anyone so they dont make much difference but at least these debtors have had their card marked as such and if no moneys are forthcoming they are written to and told not to darken our door again. It doesnt solve the problem but we just get a regular cheque from the debt collector after he has taken his cut. Grin and bear it after shelving the problem in Sheriff's Officer status!

Re: Debt Collectors

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:44:17 GMT

No bright ideas I'm afraid. I went through a phase of using the Small Claims Court-waste of time. I spent a lot of time on it, would recieve judgement, and find the debtors were already paying so many other debts off (in theory ) that I would be awarded a derisory 50p a week on a debt amounting to hundreds, and then they would'nt even pay that. Not worth chasing further, as I doubt they would have any saleable assets. One owner had expensive surgery, and then said he was unemployed. I asked why he had'nt gone to the PDSA, and was told it was too far to walk, and I would give him credit, which a taxi driver would not. What can one do ? I could not turn away an animal that was suffering, so I suppose just grin and bear it !!!!

I've twice tried debt-collecting firms, and had no luck there either. They charge a % of recoveries, so I suppose a lot of comparatively small debts are not a profitable use of their resources

Wynne