Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Sarah Keir — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:35:10 GMT

[quote user="Oliver Morrison"]

blanket treating.

[/quote]

Really? There are plenty of dogs that get no worming treatments at all and plenty more that get them at sub-optimal dosing periods. Plus foxes. Plenty of non-exposed endoparasites around.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Oliver Morrison — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:28:57 GMT

I was not suggesting I agreed with his thoughts on fipronil resistance, I was just playing devils advocate, and floating the ideas of someone who had read the literature, or though, it appears Bob has and found something to support resistance.

I would suggest risk period is the spring and autumn - that's when I see slugs/snail about.

Yes cutaneous larval migrans is a risk. And I am not suggesting we stop worming all together, I am suggesting maybe we should justify treatment with wec's before we do it to target treatment. We are well aware of documented resistance to endoparasiticides in livestock parasites, so how long till we get them in pet animals? and what do we do once there is resistance? given we only have a few products available which we have been blanket treating with for a long time.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Bob Russell — Mon, 12 Nov 2018 14:31:49 GMT

There is evidence for a genetic mutation allowing fipronil 'tolerance'. It was hiding in one of the papers Bayer sent me when I reported imidocloprid problems.

As far as I am aware resistance requires a change in the genetic make up which seems to fit.

Applying Frontline is not rocket science nor is putting on a Seresto collar. I regularly get patients in hooching with fleas that have been treated with Frontline or Spot On or other fipronil products.

Not sure if I care whether this is resistance or client compliance. We never see it with Stronghold, Vectra, Bravecto or Nexgard.

If it don't work it don't work!

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

David Mills — Fri, 09 Nov 2018 20:06:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Oliver Morrison"] our dermatologist lecturer at uni did no think the evidence behind fipronil resistance was strong enough, and the issue was poor compliance with application, and owners not effectively treating the environment. [/quote]So given the compliance has probably not changed how come Fipronil used to work but now we see animals treated with it hooching in fleas? And Merial suddenly started putting methoprene in Frontline Plus![/quote]

Out of touch rubbish spouted by a University lecturer shocker. Irresponsible really.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Nov 2018 18:27:14 GMT

[quote user="Oliver Morrison"] How many dogs and cats are we banging wormers into throughout the year, when they haven't got a worm problem, or have a very low burden and have developed some resistance?[/quote]The major concern with dogs is the zoonotic issue with visceral larval migrans in children is it not?

[quote user="Oliver Morrison"] I think there's an argument for targeted treatment during risk periods for lungworm,[/quote]So what is that risk period? Given climate change there are very few months when there are not slugs and snails around. I saw a life threatening case in March this year. And many cats are hunters so will be picking up tapeworm from prey constantly.

[quote user="Oliver Morrison"] our dermatologist lecturer at uni did no think the evidence behind fipronil resistance was strong enough, and the issue was poor compliance with application, and owners not effectively treating the environment. [/quote]So given the compliance has probably not changed how come Fipronil used to work but now we see animals treated with it hooching in fleas? And Merial suddenly started putting methoprene in Frontline Plus!

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Oliver Morrison — Fri, 09 Nov 2018 17:34:21 GMT

They've got the new bravecto plus with moxidectin added in for cats now, and was chatting to an MSD rep the other day who hinted there is a similar product for dogs on its way.

However I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread. In livestock practice we are pushing the use of wec's to prevent anthilmentic resistance, which is a growing concern. I know we do use targeted treatment as well at times of the year. But should we not be doing the same in companion animals. How many dogs and cats are we banging wormers into throughout the year, when they haven't got a worm problem, or have a very low burden and have developed some resistance? I think there's an argument for targeted treatment during risk periods for lungworm, but should we not be considering wec's the rest of the time?

With fleas, as some of you have mentioned, our dermatologist lecturer at uni did no think the evidence behind fipronil resistance was strong enough, and the issue was poor compliance with application, and owners not effectively treating the environment. And I am sure that is the problem we are seeing with imidocloprid (i've seen pets where owners don't think its worked) and seresto.

Ollie

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 13:50:17 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I don't know about Nexgard Spectra but Bravecto, despite not being licensed, is very effective against mites.[/quote]But it doesn't treat worms.[/quote]

One of the Bravecto stand members at London Vet show, told me that he/she pushes a milbemax into a Bravecto, job done

Neil

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 09:46:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I don't know about Nexgard Spectra but Bravecto, despite not being licensed, is very effective against mites.[/quote]But it doesn't treat worms.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Bob Russell — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 09:31:37 GMT

I removed each one of these collars and they were all on correctly.

I have stopped using the collars in my cats as a result of the decision to put all the collars up to £55 (also in advance of them changing to POM-VPS next year).

I moved the dogs over to Nexgard Spectra a couple of years ago but was happy with Seresto on the cats. Now on Bravecto.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 09:05:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The advent of Nexgard Spectra has turned the tide towards tablets. The problem is of course that there is no universal antiparasitic so those who are more concerned about mites than ticks will still use Advocate/Stronghold.[/quote]

I don't know about Nexgard Spectra but Bravecto, despite not being licensed, is very effective against mites.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Utlendigur — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:56:02 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This compared with the reports of a high proportion of vets are seeing failures with fipronil, IMO suggests this is more of an individual compliance/application technique issue rather than resistance. [/quote]

I find that, when asked, a lot of clients are applying frontline every 3 months. There seems to be something on the packaging or advertising that says "3 months' protection", so they think it's 3 months per vial.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We have an ever increasing number of unexplained Seresto failures. Not swimmers, not shampoo'd, no in contact animals etc etc. [/quote]

That's interesting. I've used it on my own dogs for several years without problems, even in high tick area, but this year was picking numerous ticks off on a daily basis, and had several fully engorged ticks fall off. Bayer said it wasn't product failure unless > 10 ticks per day and it was just a bad year..

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:55:17 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I think all topicals can suffer from issues with application; we find stronghold applies much easier than many others as less viscous. However many of our dogs are moving to systemic tablets (simparica/bravecto etc).[/quote]Agreed Stronghold is much easier to apply due to the design of the pipette, the liquid is less viscous and smaller volume. It amazes me how inept clients are at using the pipettes, even just opening them without spilling half the contents, so its little wonder they ostensibly don't work.

[quote user="David Mills"]I think most flea and parasite control in the dog in the future will be tablet based. [/quote] I would say that we are 50/50 with spot-on v tablet in dogs. The advent of Nexgard Spectra has turned the tide towards tablets. The problem is of course that there is no universal antiparasitic so those who are more concerned about mites than ticks will still use Advocate/Stronghold.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 08:33:43 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We have an ever increasing number of unexplained Seresto failures. Not swimmers, not shampoo'd, no in contact animals etc etc. [/quote]

The biggest issue I've seen with Seresto collars is clients putting them on too loosely so they don't make enough contact with the neck.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 02 Nov 2018 00:04:37 GMT

I agree that tablets are the way forwards but I do wonder what the selection pressure is like on the parasites using long acting products. I've seen disasters from over-reliance on long acting moxidectin preparations in sheep. The more widespread the use the less unexposed parasites.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

David Mills — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 22:19:52 GMT

I think most flea and parasite control in the dog in the future will be tablet based. The application of a small amount of liquid to the back of the neck to me always seemed a pointless "simplification" that is wrought with potential compliance pitfalls.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 20:02:47 GMT

I think all topicals can suffer from issues with application; we find stronghold applies much easier than many others as less viscous. However many of our dogs are moving to systemic tablets (simparica/bravecto etc).

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 17:48:17 GMT

I only sell a very occasional Seresto collar and as said have only had a couple of clients suggest Advocate isn't working. I can see the problem with a collar is that it is not in contact with the skin especially in a long coated dog so the distribution over the further reaches of the dog will be haphazard.

RE: Imidacloprid resistance - tangent of Telemedicine Trial

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 17:18:13 GMT

We have an ever increasing number of unexplained Seresto failures. Not swimmers, not shampoo'd, no in contact animals etc etc.

Bayer offered the use of flea traps to show an environmental problem. Not sure why because if they have established in the environment the stuff is not working.

Not widespread like fipronil but seems to be getting more frequent which is why I asked if others were seeing the same thing.