Wooferendum

RE: Wooferendum

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:26:26 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

There can be no 2nd vote, there is no time. Brexit means Brexit - remember?

I'm convinced there will be a deal and it will be thrashed out in the last days or even hours. So lets just shut up pontificating and let the politicians (who we voted for) get on with Brexit (that we voted for). This is how democracy works, if you don't like it there are a number of places that you could go that don't have it..

[/quote]The problem is that with a democratically elected government if you get it wrong you can vote again to correct this in 5 years or less. Brexit is forever or at least for a very long time before the EU would contemplate letting us back in when we realise we got it wrong.

[quote user="David Mills"]I often wonder whether if we had voted remain the Brexiteers would be constantly twittering on about a "people's vote" (as opposed to, say, elephants voting for instance) because they didn't like the first result. I just can't imagine them doing really, or this weird moral appropriation of the remain side. I am evidently increasingly perplexed by the Left.[/quote]The answer is no because the majority of people who voted leave were so thick they did so without realising the magnitude of what they were voting for and are not likely to consider another vote. I'm not saying there weren't a few with a brain that were able to make a decision based on a true understanding of EU rules and machinations which they didn't like rather than just xenophobia, a rose tinted image of a former Great Britain and a false promise of money going into the NHS. But the majority of people with a brain realised that whatever the disadvantages were of being in the EU (and I'll admit there are many) the advantages of staying are greater.

RE: Wooferendum

Bob Russell — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:05:28 GMT

I don't believe freedom of movement EU style will be possible. It would allow free entry to the UK for anybody legally present in the Irish Republic.

Irish and United Kingdom citizens will have full freedom of movement between the two countries as has always been the case. Non-Irish/UK passport holders will have to be subject to some form of checks. This just will not be at the Ireland?NI border.

Under the radar checks are done at all ports already as a result of the history of the troubles. This may need to become more formalised which will upset some. Irish flight passengers do not have to go through immigration control so this will probably continue to be monitored via the airlines.

It is likely to be a bit complicated in theory but unlikely to mean any visible change to the travelling public. I suspect (unless negotiated differently) that UK/Irish passport holders might go through one set of gates, everyone else through another. I would bet that there is an agreement reached that allows everything to stay pretty much as it is other than an ESTA type complication!

RE: Wooferendum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:50:16 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]My issue with Tim's argument, is that every day you know a little bit more of what the future looks like outside the EU,[/quote]

I'll let you into a little secret. No-one knows what life will be like outside the EU, despite what the Left consistently say. So much hot air and anger wasted on pointless predictions and empty virtue signalling

RE: Wooferendum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:47:22 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] This is how democracy works, if you don't like it there are a number of places that you could go that don't have it......[/quote]

I often wonder whether if we had voted remain the Brexiteers would be constantly twittering on about a "people's vote" (as opposed to, say, elephants voting for instance) because they didn't like the first result. I just can't imagine them doing really, or this weird moral appropriation of the remain side. I am evidently increasingly perplexed by the Left.

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 07:35:36 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I'm convinced there will be a deal and it will be thrashed out in the last days or even hours. So lets just shut up pontificating and let the politicians

[/quote]

I expect a general election being announced before Brexit deadline and for a modified version of Chequers (allowing FoM to continue in NI) to be the forefront of the Tory manifesto.

I've predicted more difficult things before

RE: Wooferendum

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 02:35:04 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]Only 1 referendum re-run to worry about? LUXURY. We have 2 of them in Scotland! [/quote]

No, I really hope May tells Wee Jimmy Krankie to go swivel as well. She was told she got 1 go at a Scottish referendum.

RE: Wooferendum

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 11 Oct 2018 02:31:19 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I guess the problem I have with a second referendum on the final deal is that you can never know what the final deal is until the final deal has actually been done, by which time it's too late for a referendum.

Anything before the final deal is just posturing, scaremongering and propaganda.

[/quote]

Agree 100%. I'd be far far far more worried if we had the deal on the table now, we'd have to concede so much and bow to Europe on everything. What we need to do is resist their demands until the very last minute - the person to twitch last will get the best deal. I'm not a massive fan of May, but I think she can do this, and do a decent job of it.

She needs to keep saying 'no' to crap deals being offered and something decent will be on the table by the last moments. There can be no 2nd vote, there is no time. Brexit means Brexit - remember?

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 07:29:53 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

And I particularly worry about the extreme nationalism that comes with Western independence referendums.

[/quote]

It was very apparent in Scotland, families turing against each other, people with vote no stickers having their cars or homes vandalised. It was horrible! Of course it was a minority doing this, but in small communities it has a big impact.

[/quote]

Similar things in Barcelona. Unfortunately the outside press only picked up violence from one side during last year's unrest.

RE: Wooferendum

Robert FalconerTaylor — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 05:57:36 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

And I particularly worry about the extreme nationalism that comes with Western independence referendums.

[/quote]

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 18:14:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Anything before the final deal is just posturing, scaremongering and propaganda.

[/quote]

That's a very extreme view IMO.

'Anything' is probably a bit too much for me and I worry that this opinion comes directly from those extreme voices I was referring to earlier.

No matter how you want to look at it, the fact is that 'everything' business or otherwise you do today, has to be done on prediction if you want to survive. Waiting too long for the bus to run you over is a bit silly.

My issue with Tim's argument, is that every day you know a little bit more of what the future looks like outside the EU, so if you do a referendum on the deal, you might as well do another one once the deal has been implemented, another one a few days after the Brexit day to see if the sh*t hits the fan, another one in 2-3 years to evaluate the short-term impact and another one in 50 years time (as Rees-Mogg suggests https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566)

Also... a referendum on what Tim Browning?

BTW, Would Rees-Mogg support a referendum on the deal today? www.youtube.com/watch

If you wish a tangent Arlo Guthrie, would this be 'posturing, scaremongering and propaganda? I hear voices saying that too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45775309

RE: Wooferendum

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 17:22:51 GMT

[quote user="Tim Browning"]Whilst not a fan of the use of the referendum I don't understand the argument that the people have spoken and it would be a betrayal of democracy to have a people's vote now the people's mind is more focused.[/quote]

Anything before the final deal is just posturing, scaremongering and propaganda.

RE: Wooferendum

Iain Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 14:18:35 GMT

What a stupid thing to do. Now all the cats will vote to oppose the dogs. The dogs will then have to call on the rabbits to get anything done, but they'll have to give the rabbits massive concessions.

RE: Wooferendum

David Mills — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 13:27:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]My dogs are lacking the information required to make a valid judgement anyway.[/quote]

They would fit right in at Momentum.

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:53:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

My dogs are lacking the information required to make a valid judgement anyway.

[/quote]

Apparently now, if you use the same argument against people (in politics or otherwise), you are being 'patronising'.

RE: Wooferendum

Bob Russell — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:46:13 GMT

Why the heck would a dog be interested in a second referendum?

My dogs are lacking the information required to make a valid judgement anyway.

We will get an agreement that I suspect nobody will be overly happy with because everyone has far too much to lose without any agreement.

The posturing by Barnier and to a lesser extent Juncker just pis+es me off because it is unhelpful and not the way for any grown up negotiation. Almost childlike!

RE: Wooferendum

Tim Browning — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:42:45 GMT

Whilst not a fan of the use of the referendum I don't understand the argument that the people have spoken and it would be a betrayal of democracy to have a people's vote now the people's mind is more focused.

We have general elections every few years, sometimes only a year or so apart and don't expect people to keep voting the same way every time or there wouldn't be any point in the whole torturous process reoccurring and we could move the Chinese Model.

But we need to know the final deal detail with an accurate economic appraisal (!) and also have a functioning crystal ball..

RE: Wooferendum

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:01:36 GMT

There was something happening yesterday - in the Sunday Torygraph there was a picture of dogs urinating on pictures of Nigel Farage and Boris.

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 10:14:16 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]

Only 1 referendum re-run to worry about? LUXURY. We have 2 of them in Scotland!

[/quote]

I'm not a big fan of referendums, for all the reasons I wrote earlier. At all. And I particularly worry about the extreme nationalism that comes with Western independence referendums.

But the more weight you give to the 2016 EU referendum, intrinsically, the more legitimate a second referendum for Scotland becomes.

Remember this?

I don't believe these people were lying but it is obvious that a large reason to vote 'no' back then does no longer apply.

RE: Wooferendum

Robert FalconerTaylor — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 06:44:21 GMT

Only 1 referendum re-run to worry about? LUXURY. We have 2 of them in Scotland!

RE: Wooferendum

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 07 Oct 2018 09:47:54 GMT

I'm probably the most remoaner and remaniac of the forum. But not only I don't really 'like' referendums, I also have my doubts about 'second' referendums.

To start with, I don't even agree with the premise. A referendum gets influenced by what is going on in the country and the media at the time of the question. But then the result becomes permanent even if this influence has ceased to exist.

It doesn't matter if the result makes no sense at all, having a second one can't invalidate the first anymore than a third would invalidate the second.

The beauty of 'indirect democracy' is in itself the act of giving representatives the workload and the burden. It is for them to do the research and decide where they want your country to go based on the program that got them elected, removing the emotional component as much as humanely possible.

If the question is simple enough, you don't need to 'organise' a referendum. The party in government should make that decision.

If the question is complicated enough, it seems unfair to put the onus (and therefore the blame) on the electorate when MPs are being paid decent wages in Westminster to find out what is the most beneficial for their constituents.

And then you have the grammar:

How is non-EU, EEA membership a betrayal to the so called 'will of the people'? It's in there in black and white, CU and SM does NOT imply EU membership. However the government has spent 2 years+ moving public opinion towards this 'betrayal' narrative in order to appease a few extreme voices.

What do we do know?