Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 11:55:57 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Here, in a nutshell, is the reason we all now need contracts at all.[/quote]

Yes, probably, and it saddens me.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 08:10:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Here, in a nutshell [IMHO] is one of the differences between now and back-in-the-day. We didn't need a "clear understanding"; "extra hours" was a given; just part of the job as a vet.[/quote]

Here, in a nutshell, is the reason we all now need contracts at all.

One person's 'extra hours' is another's exploitation. I suspect you would fall in the former category Anthony, but not all employers are alike.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

rhmrcvs — Sat, 04 Aug 2018 22:11:01 GMT

Standard contract.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 09:16:08 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]"clear understanding"; "extra hours" was a given; just part of the job as a vet[/quote]

We all clearly understand that working extra is part of the job, to suggest otherwise is insulting. Equally if it's a 'normal' day I reasonably want to know what time I'm starting and if I'm expecting to finish work at 5,6 or 7; it's not a difficult question to answer and for the OP's employer how can't answer it I'd question why (and given the bit about laying off I have my suspicions). I don't believe operating as a fair and kind employer (that might retain their staff, a big issue today) in the 21st century is incompatible with vets still upholding their professional duty.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 00:46:04 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I'm sorry, but knowing the standard hours are, say, 8.30-6pm 5 days a week, 1-in-x on call, n Saturdays and y Sundays is entirely reasonable - and a legal requirement; with clearly an understanding that the nature of the job will entail working beyond this at times.[/quote]

Here, in a nutshell [IMHO] is one of the differences between now and back-in-the-day. We didn't need a "clear understanding"; "extra hours" was a given; just part of the job as a vet.

I remember one of my vets, with a difficult elbow # to do, and I asked him next morning when he was going to do it?

He said, "ohhh, came in early, and did it this morning"

Not today I fear!

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 18:42:04 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Just been handed an Employee Handbook which is contractual. In it is a section on lay off/short time working. I have never seen anything like this before and to me it smarts of the employer being able to instigate the equivalent of a zero hours contract. Basically if there is not enough work, they can lay off employees or shorten hours with no notice and only statutory pay of £28 a day!

Does anyone else have any experience with this or should I get some legal advice? I am a new employee so I guess I could refuse to sign it but then not sure where I would stand. I makes me worried that the employers are worried enough to put this in the contract! Or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill and everyone else gets this in their contract?

And what about hours in a contract - I would like the nominal normal hours of work to be specified but the employers have refused saying it is my professional duty to be flexible. There is flexible and taking the piss though

[/quote]

DO NOT SIGN IT! And don't waste your cash on a lawyer either, just move on.

That sounds a right horrible shower to work for. There are plenty of good jobs out there - keep looking

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Rob Loxley — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:22:04 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Any practice having, or applying, any sort of employment contract with legal hours of work with, or to, veterinary surgeons won't, or wouldn't, be a happy place, at least back-in-the-day![/quote]

I'm sorry, but knowing the standard hours are, say, 8.30-6pm 5 days a week, 1-in-x on call, n Saturdays and y Sundays is entirely reasonable - and a legal requirement; with clearly an understanding that the nature of the job will entail working beyond this at times.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:21:37 GMT

Any practice having, or applying, any sort of employment contract with legal hours of work with, or to, veterinary surgeons won't, or wouldn't, be a happy place, at least back-in-the-day!

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 21:13:25 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I do agree it's not sustainable long term staying late every night (if working efficiently) but seeing it as something that everything beyond 6.01 is paid back in time or money is also ridiculous IMO[/quote]

I don't think everyone should be clockwatching, but a bit of give and take is needed. If the employer can't specificy the standard contracted hours, asks you to accept working all hours and reserves the right to lay you off then it's rather one sided?

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 21:07:17 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]but employees can't expect to be paid for the extra hours they work (given every hour worked is billed out to the client), or an early finish in lieu etc.? that's where the disconnect comes, IMHO[/quote]

Yes but if we have a quiet day/afternoon then do I dock their pay? You can't have it both ways as we are potentially discussing a zero hours contract. I'd save money if I could only pay the staff when they were generating income....... Some of it is the nature of large animal work, but I've seen small animal practice go quiet in the summer holidays or if it snows.

I do agree it's not sustainable long term staying late every night (if working efficiently) but seeing it as something that everything beyond 6.01 is paid back in time or money is also ridiculous IMO.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:22:42 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"] is it not normal to have working hours on contracts of employment?[/quote]

It is a legal requirement that employees are given their hours of work - see above

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I'll send them home early on quiet days.[/quote]

Sounds like you're a good boss. But what if there are no quiet days, no quid pro quo, just the bosses saying you have to work as long as it takes and taking advantage of your 'professionalism'.
If a new employer couldn't give me an expected standard number/times of hours then I'd be very wary

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]vocation when you go when the work is done[/quote] but employees can't expect to be paid for the extra hours they work (given every hour worked is billed out to the client), or an early finish in lieu etc.? that's where the disconnect comes, IMHO

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Sarah Keir — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:05:44 GMT

I am in a similar situation - is it not normal to have working hours on contracts of employment?

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:04:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I would want working hours defined clearly, and would not accept or sign to anything less. Of course, given the nature of what we do I would accept a degree of flexibility, but would also want it stated how I would be remunerated or compensated with time off, for the extra which I do. [/quote]

I think doing extra is the nature of a salaried professional. I'd hate it if our vets were clock watching wanting the 27 minutes back when an emergency comes in. I'll send them home early on quiet days.

I think this sums up a lot of the problems we have with the profession these days - people looking at this as a job where you leave at 6 and not a vocation when you go when the work is done.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:26:49 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I am a new employee so I guess I could refuse to sign it but then not sure where I would stand.[/quote]

Yes you can. What you have at the moment is a proposed or suggested contract, or an offer of a contract if you like. You can choose whether or not to accept it, and whether or not you sign it. Your call entirely.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill and everyone else gets this in their contract?[/quote]

No. You are right to want it to be correct in the first place, rather than agree and sign and have to try alter or correct things later. Don't sign until you are happy with it.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Basically if there is not enough work, they can lay off employees or shorten hours with no notice and only statutory pay of £28 a day![/quote]

Absolutely would not agree to that. I would not even accept those conditions as a locum, I charge a daily rate regardless of work load

I know of one practice where that has backfired. Zero hours contracts were introduced for nurses, and they can and were sent home without pay if they were not needed on a particular day. On a quiet Friday both RVN's were sent home, after which 2 surgical cases were admitted during consults; one a pyometra the other a possible intestinal foreign body, and with no nurses on duty. Both nurses refused to come back in, stating that they had already made alternative plans for the day, in addition to already being unhappy at being sent home leaving them out of pocket after their travel costs. Both cases were pushed over to the OOH provider. A lose - lose situation for everyone.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]And what about hours in a contract - I would like the nominal normal hours of work to be specified but the employers have refused saying it is my professional duty to be flexible. There is flexible and taking the piss though[/quote]

I would want working hours defined clearly, and would not accept or sign to anything less. Of course, given the nature of what we do I would accept a degree of flexibility, but would also want it stated how I would be remunerated or compensated with time off, for the extra which I do.

Playing the "professional duty" card gives a green light to exploitative employment practices, which unfortunately are not uncommon within the profession.

PS: If you want to bail (not saying that you should or shouldn't) now is the time. There are many good practices, offering good packages and conditions, looking for good vets.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Chris Milligan — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:09:27 GMT

OK forgive me for reading too far ahead, but firstly yes if you're not sure check with a lawyer.

Given this kind of contract I'm wondering if this is a contract from a large corporate veterinary practice? If so most of this stuff is there to use if they fall out with you over something else. Given the state of veterinary employment in the UK at the moment I'd be surprised if you'd ever be laid off for lack of work.

If you don't like it don't sign it. There's shit loads of work out there. Like, loads. At least for now :S

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:37:20 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]should I get some legal advice?[/quote]

Yes

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I could refuse to sign it but then not sure where I would stand.[/quote]

Don't sign it.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]And what about hours in a contract - I would like the nominal normal hours of work to be specified[/quote]

The employer is legally obliged to provide a written statement of terms and conditions more or less straight away on commencement of employment. Among other things it has to state your normal hours of employment.

The employee is normally requested to sign this document to confirm they have read it, but it makes little difference to anything if they don't sign it.

If both sides go on according to the terms of this written statement, it effectively becomes a contract (I believe), as far as its contents go.

This is not the same as a written Contract. The employer is not obliged to provide a contract and the employee is not obliged to agree to one.

What the employer can't do is hand you a Contract with all sorts of provisions and tell you it's compulsory to accept it.

Does this Employee Handbook represent your Written Statement of Terms and Conditions or does it represent a written Contract?

If the former, you can confirm that you've read it but state (best in writing) that you do not accept its provisions.

If it's an offered contract, don't sign it. No signature, no contract.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I would like the nominal normal hours of work to be specified but the employers have refused saying it is my professional duty to be flexible.[/quote]

Not only are they flouting the law, they are pulling a dirty trick. I wonder, are these employers veterinary surgeons? I have a small wager upon the answer, and I'm fairly confident of winning.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 23:05:53 GMT

From https://www.gov.uk/employment-contracts-and-conditions/written-statement-of-employment-particulars

"What a written statement must include...

...hours of work (and if employees will have to work Sundays, nights or overtime)"

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:45:59 GMT

We employ a company called Xact to do our human resources management, including drafting contracts. There is a term in the contract to that effect, but no one has ever questioned it. I guess it allows flexibility in disaster situations (like another practice opening down the road and stealing lots of clients). You can always ask for the clause to be removed.

We do state normal hours of work, I would expect that. Things like half days are discretionary as if we put them in the contract you'd be entitled to one even if you were the only vet there and everyone else was off sick.

RE: Is this zero hours contract by the back door?

Iain Richards — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:42:32 GMT

New or existing role? If existing, this can't be implemented with out a very good reason indeed