Job Adverts - Wording

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Rob Loxley — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:42:12 GMT

[quote user="Chris Barker"]I fear we have entered the same hole that has engulfed the NHS, where clinicians cannot be enticed into permanent jobs while they are being paid attractive rates for short term/locum positions[/quote]

Stagnation of frontline GP-vet wages, people moving to full-time locumming, practices spending more on locums than their employed vets, and therein is a spiral?

[quote user="Chris Barker"]Any recognition of the worth, of the skill involved in being a first option practitioner seems to have passed them by[/quote]

Completely agree on this. I think this feeds into the desire to specialise, but equally when there is no clear progression seen ahead in general practice (be it skill progression, wage progression, ownership/partnership etc) it is seen as a good way to go.

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Chris Barker"]Increasingly graduates seem attracted by the daily locum rates offered by desperate practices, seeing in them better remuneration for their skills, more control of their professional life, and that elusive 'work-life balance'[/quote]

Don't forget you didn't graduate with huge debts...But I still suspect the last two are more important.

[/quote]

Doesn't better remuneration helps improve one's work-life balance?

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Utlendigur — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:40:10 GMT

As a locum (who was for >20years in a permanent job) that was NOT even a minor consideration in switching to locum work. When deciding what rate to charge I worked out what I got paid per day worked in my permanent job and added a little more to cover CPD costs and extra travel costs. I could charge more (keep getting told I should charge more) - I don't.

[quote user="Chris Barker"]Any recognition of the worth, of the skill involved in being a first opinion practitioner seems to have passed them by.[/quote]

Because for years the RCVS has appeared to view first opinion vets as mainly incompetent or dodgy, and needing regulating and monitoring within an inch of their lives. If the RCVS has a dim view of first opinion practitioners, that will be pretty likely to colour the view of vet students who are seeing it through the prism of vet school/referral centre and a few weeks EMS.

[quote user="Chris Barker"]And their fears risk becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, for by their avoidance of posts with any genuine challenge [/quote]

Define challenge. Being regularly left sole charge, no back up, no support, no feedback - sink or swim? Some will swim (killing a few patients along the way) and eventually do well, but others will leave the job/profession - then get criticised as snowflakes. That smacks of poor management rather than a problem with the employees.

Don't forget you didn't graduate with huge debts...But I still suspect the last two are more important. What is wrong with wanting control of your professional life? Or wanting to have a/any life outside of work? Many practices are still run by men in their 50s/60s who can't see that just because they worked a certain way means that that way is the only way. It isn't working - the profession is losing people they can't afford to lose because those at the top still have the view that they had to put up with it, so everyone else should as a rite of passage, or quit.

Rant over

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Chris Barker — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:00:50 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Are we in a spiral?[/quote]

I fear we have entered the same hole that has engulfed the NHS, where clinicians cannot be enticed into permanent jobs while they are being paid attractive rates for short term/locum positions.

Veterinary graduates seems to be emerging both with a fear of emergency/OOH work and the belief that to get anywhere in the profession they need to specialise. Any recognition of the worth, of the skill involved in being a first option practitioner seems to have passed them by. And their fears risk becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, for by their avoidance of posts with any genuine challenge they can end up in jobs where first opinion practice has become reduced to the routine, the mundane, with all interesting cases being referred.

Increasingly graduates seem attracted by the daily locum rates offered by desperate practices, seeing in them better remuneration for their skills, more control of their professional life, and that elusive 'work-life balance'. What they don't seem to recognise is the disjointed nature of the work, the fact that their professional skills will not grow in the way that they might in a permanent post (seeing their own follow ups, following animals through the course of a longer medical condition), nor the problem of approaching banks for loans/mortgages when the very nature of their work is not guaranteed/predictable.

Difficult times, and simply generating more graduates from the Universities, just for them to join the ranks of the disillusioned exiting the profession after a few, short years is no answer

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Rob Loxley — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:22:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]or after 4pm on a weekday they will send all surgeries or possible emergencies our way before doing any work up themselves - means that yes we are a bit busier but not always, the vets on call get more of a chance to do non-routine surgeries which is what they want, and our income as a practice grows so we can then afford new staff and equipment[/quote]

But for your practice that you've increased the breadth of surgery and income to afford staff and equipment, there are now 3 other practices doing less, learning less, earning less? But I guess they can leave on the dot.

Our policy is if it comes in during opening hours we treat, workup, operate etc rather than just bumping our work to someone else to do (and bill)

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:32:10 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Er, the whole thing. The fact that they were seen OOH 3 days ago and then told to come back for a repeat consult during normal hours but left it til OOH.. Having to deal with a shitty little Yorkie that you can't even approach that the owners are probably in complete denial about.. and after all that they still have the nerve to complain about the bill for 2 OOH and a sedation!![/quote]

TBH with the three of us there and the other stuff we dealt with it was light relief, especially as we realised that they will have learnt their lesson about following instructions when we totted up the final bill!

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Gareth C. — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:59:36 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Yet my current RVC student tells me she has 300 in her year (there were 75 in my year at Glasgow), and there are two more vet schools than in my day. Where do all the vets go? Surely there should be more vets than jobs, not vice versa?[/quote]

Its a massive problem. I've written about it a bit recently in my column in Vet Practice magazine. The RCVS and BVA are doing what they can re shortage occupation list but the problem is as bad in Australia.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:06:29 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]This is a great example of why I would never do OOH work again.[/quote]

Which aspect of it puts you off? I don't understand. Is it the owners grumbling at the bill? Some owners grumble at any bill, you know that.

[/quote]

Er, the whole thing. The fact that they were seen OOH 3 days ago and then told to come back for a repeat consult during normal hours but left it til OOH.. Having to deal with a shitty little Yorkie that you can't even approach that the owners are probably in complete denial about.. and after all that they still have the nerve to complain about the bill for 2 OOH and a sedation!!

It's this sort of scenario that puts vets off OOH work and practice in general.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:58:06 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]This is a great example of why I would never do OOH work again.[/quote]

Which aspect of it puts you off? I don't understand. Is it the owners grumbling at the bill? Some owners grumble at any bill, you know that.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:41:36 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

This is a great example of why I would never do OOH work again.

[/quote]

True, but the more money we make OOH the more resources will be put to it to ensure we can maintain it. We now provide OOH cover for 3 other IVC practices in our area, at weekends or after 4pm on a weekday they will send all surgeries or possible emergencies our way before doing any work up themselves - means that yes we are a bit busier but not always, the vets on call get more of a chance to do non-routine surgeries which is what they want, and our income as a practice grows so we can then afford new staff and equipment.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 15:25:56 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]A great friend of mine when we were both assistants left to put up his plate. His approach to such stuff was simple: "Sure I'll spay your albatross at 3 a.m. As long as you don't mind paying 3 a.m. rates."[/quote]

We had one of those the other weekend. Rang up at 10pm on a Saturday night after being seen OOH 3 days before and told to come back on the Friday in normal working housr (didn't) because the dog 'still wasn't right'. We offered symptomatic care or full work up, o' opted for the latter.

Complicating factor was this Yorkie was so aggressive we couldnt get near it - had to put it into a cat crush cage to sedate it and examine it. Turned out to have full anal glands. Then the owners grumbled about the bill...

[/quote]

This is a great example of why I would never do OOH work again.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:07:25 GMT

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:59:33 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]OOH calls I remember are seeing a dog with fleas at 3am at the owners insistence, seeing a dog with an erection ("hard painful swelling") at 5am, numerous calls about cats walking funny and screaming in pain (in season) and even a request for a scale and polish on Christmas day![/quote]

A great friend of mine when we were both assistants left to put up his plate. His approach to such stuff was simple: "Sure I'll spay your albatross at 3 a.m. As long as you don't mind paying 3 a.m. rates." For an assistant "on call" this should imply that the assistant is properly rewarded for any job done "out of hours". The charge for anything out of hours obviously carries a big premium – that premium, or only 95% of it if you're a tightfisted boss, should go straight to the assistant.

[quote user="Julie Innes"]The stress of trying to weed out the people that didn't need seen. If I didn't see them, I worried that I should have, so I just saw everything if the owners wanted it seen! The ones that didn't want seen, but that I wanted to see also kept me awake at night. [/quote]

This sort of thing can be much reduced if the phone out of hours is answered by a nurse.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:51:19 GMT

I've tangent the OOH discussion

Neil

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Martin McDowell — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:39:19 GMT

"Short term memory loss to aid clients with their insurance claims would be an advantage" ROTFPML

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:36:08 GMT

Julie, absolutely, many of the so called emergencies are actually trivial things that can wait. But I still think this is an important process from which new graduates can learn to triage cases, be assertive and learn how to say no, build some confidence and most important to understand that OOH is not the equivalent of A&E and not the end of the world.

Some of my worst experiences as a vet happened during normal opening hours and some of my best during OOH work.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:29:03 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

Because the majority of new grad vets no longer want to do any on call. You'll find places with no OOH will probably have more applicants per advert than ones that state they do their own OOH.

For some reason the recent graduates just don't want to do it.

[/quote]

New grads shouldn't be doing on-calls.

[/quote]

Disagree. New grads should be doing on call with appropriate support. It's OOH when you best learn time management, because if you faff you don't get to sleep!

All our new grads have an induction period where they don't do any on call for the first 3 months. We have senior vets on call as back up, and when the new grads have their first night on call they are in with them initially to make sure everything is ok, and won't leave until it's sorted.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Julie Innes — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:53:04 GMT

I'm always interested when people go on about how much you learn on call. I did on call for the first 6 years of my career, and I honestly can't remember seeing many "interesting" (or even emergent!) cases! Most of the interesting cases I have seen have been during the day, even the torsions (although sods law usually at the very end of the day!) Have done numerous C-sections, but none OOH (except in cows!)

OOH calls I remember are seeing a dog with fleas at 3am at the owners insistence, seeing a dog with an erection ("hard painful swelling") at 5am, numerous calls about cats walking funny and screaming in pain (in season) and even a request for a scale and polish on Christmas day!

I think that is what put me personally off doing on call. The stress of trying to weed out the people that didn't need seen. If I didn't see them, I worried that I should have, so I just saw everything if the owners wanted it seen! The ones that didn't want seen, but that I wanted to see also kept me awake at night. Horrible stressful times. I'm not sure anyone should HAVE to do it

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:25:06 GMT

The Boomers are retiring - just like economists have been warning us for years!

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

gdbvet — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:34:18 GMT

good sense of humour required=adaptable,able to withstand the stresses of practice life,not a personality deficient swat.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Linda Filshie — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:02:59 GMT

Off putting:

The usual toys - you have an ultrasound machine, awesome, wow

Cake/plenty of cake - i'm a professional, not a 5 year old (also, see above). If you pay a decent salary I can probably afford to buy my own cake

Attractive:

Plenty of time to work up cases - implies there might be time built into the day to do the reading/thinking/planning that more complex cases require

Good mix of surgery and consults - i like both, but be honest and let the candidates know if there is a bias one way or the other

Case continuity encouraged

Clinical/journal club - implies proactive approach to learning and development

Certificate study encouraged and funded, or at least generous cpd provision. It was £1000/y in my 1st job in 2003 and that went a lot further then.

And finally an idea of the minimum salary expectation. I'm not going to waste time and effort applying for a job that would leave me worse off!

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:02:21 GMT

[quote user="Camilla Edwards"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Having reached the ripe old age of 50 I am retiring from veterinary practice.[/quote]

and Brexit to blame -

[/quote]

Oi!

You either blame Brexit or the EU. You can't have it both ways!

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:58:03 GMT

[quote user="Camilla Edwards"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Having reached the ripe old age of 50 I am retiring from veterinary practice.[/quote]

Ah, so it's not all feminisation of the work force, Mum's leaving the profession, new graduates diversifying, and Brexit to blame - early retirees are contributing too! I hadn't thought of this as an issue but maybe it is? I wonder what the average age of retirement is in the veterinary profession is?

Anyway I agree with the above - needs a sense of humour suggests that someone else tried and didn't fit in... worrying! I just looked at the first few job ads on here - Blacks Vets looked like an example of good, appealing advert!

[/quote]

You could have a point! I'm guessing that there are fewer vets of my vintage becoming partners. There's at least three middle-aged locum vets here

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Camilla Edwards — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:43:13 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Having reached the ripe old age of 50 I am retiring from veterinary practice.[/quote]

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:07:22 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Are we in a spiral? Increased demand, more pressure, vets choosing to stop doing OOH? I think we are. There may be a breaking point.

Neil

[/quote]

Maybe. And Brexit is probably only likely to make recruitment harder.

Having reached the ripe old age of 50 I am retiring from veterinary practice.

RE: Job Adverts - Wording

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:56:14 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Camilla Edwards"] I love emergency work, but I hate being on call[/quote]

A view held by many

[/quote]

Never was by me.