Pat passport advice

RE: Pat passport advice

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 11:11:45 GMT

[quote user="Elisabeth Knappett"]

We get complaints from our clients that our rabies reminders are sent out at 35 months post vaccine - to try and make sure that they don't go overdue! Can't please all folks I suppose...

BTW, does anyone suggest that owners titre check for the rabies vaccine anymore? I know it is not a requirement, but I know if I travelled my pets, I'd want to be damn sure they were protected by the vaccine I'd given them!

[/quote]We send our reminders out 2 months ahead of when the vaccine is due so they have plenty of time but I check first to see if its going to be a waste of postage: i.e. if they're foreign and not been back for anything since its likely they've moved away.

Some countries still require a rabies ab titre and that may be a simple pass/fail or the actual titre.

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]As I recall the titre tended to drop quite quickly after vaccination- they were more likely to fail the longer it had been since vaccination. Isn't a lot of the protection supposed to be cell mediated immunity?[/quote]

I guess we're thinking of those where the titre never rose to 0.5iu/ml

[/quote]

Don't forget the 0.5iu/ml was well over protective levels so it would still be protective at much lower levels.

RE: Pat passport advice

Rob Loxley — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:50:17 GMT

I guess we're thinking of those where the titre never rose to 0.5iu/ml

RE: Pat passport advice

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:30:48 GMT

As I recall the titre tended to drop quite quickly after vaccination- they were more likely to fail the longer it had been since vaccination. Isn't a lot of the protection supposed to be cell mediated immunity?

RE: Pat passport advice

Rob Loxley — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 18:48:32 GMT

[quote user="Elisabeth Knappett"]We get complaints from our clients that our rabies reminders are sent out at 35 months post vaccine - to try and make sure that they don't go overdue! Can't please all folks I suppose...[/quote]

We do the same, but in the text of the reminder is that it needs to be done before 'due date', as we've had a few who've panicked that they've missed the booster as the reminder arrived a month ago.

[quote user="Elisabeth Knappett"]BTW, does anyone suggest that owners titre check for the rabies vaccine anymore? I know it is not a requirement, but I know if I travelled my pets, I'd want to be damn sure they were protected by the vaccine I'd given them![/quote]

Indeed, you forget there were a fair few that failed (?5%). Well worth remembering this when exporting to countries that still require titre test, when the client wants to go on a short schedule (and send the bloods recorded delivery so they get there...)

RE: Pat passport advice

Elisabeth Knappett — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:08:29 GMT

We get complaints from our clients that our rabies reminders are sent out at 35 months post vaccine - to try and make sure that they don't go overdue! Can't please all folks I suppose...

RE: Pat passport advice

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 10:46:35 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"].the RCVS investigates thoroughly, finds no reason for going to DC, but tells YOU to improve your communication![/quote]My reply would be: 'We've improved our communication i.e none: a) I will tell clients to find it all out for themselves; b) it won't be a problem after March next year because I won't be an OV anymore as the renewal requirements are too onerous/expensive to bother. Up yours.

PS how many people have completed to BVA questionnaire on b?

RE: Pat passport advice

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:29:10 GMT

So a very similar issue to mine. Now imagine...

....the client now says they were told the wrong advice by the previous vet they saw (do the client notes specifically list the advice given?)

....the client blames YOU at this point, as the senior vet, and reports you to the RCVS

....the RCVS investigates thoroughly, finds no reason for going to DC, but tells YOU to improve your communication!

Unjust, you think?

RE: Pat passport advice

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 19:29:17 GMT

Just had a phone call. Dog's Rabies vaccination was due 05/05/18. Wanting to travel to Luxembourg next week. We give a similar handout to Martin's with every passport we do, and we tell the owners at time of vaccination, when the passport is handed out. Some people just won't pay attention or not read the information available to them.

RE: Pat passport advice

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:52:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I would think, with the number of foreign vets working here, it would be vital to get the regulations dead right?

[/quote]

Thanks Tony

RE: Pat passport advice

Edward Jones — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:22:29 GMT

It's your decision to make on behalf of your pets. There's far worse things I can imagine, although a well managed transfer of ownership isn't one of them!

Oddly enough, I frequently see dogs being rehomed or kennelled for several months before being transported across to the other side of the planet anyway (i.e. the owner moves before their pets).

From a business point of view, whilst you can charge for your time spent managing an export, by definition it's not a client with much of future (holidaying to Europe excepted, of course)!.

RE: Pat passport advice

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:02:53 GMT

I know it is going off topic but nobody can really compare the stress of an 11 hour journey with the upheaval of re homing?

I hate long flights and 12 hours is really my limit non-stop. Should I choose to move to our property in Thailand for an extended time, the animals would come too.

RE: Pat passport advice

Anthony Todd — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:40:56 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]I agree that non OV, not experienced etc should not be giving this advice. [/quote]

The only point I was trying to make!

But anyone, even the "not experienced etc." can tell the owner to download the complete, up-to-date-accurate advice from the web-site.....

It's when staff, or vets, get it wrong after hoping they are right, that the manure hits the spreader!

RE: Pat passport advice

Edward Jones — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:10:20 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Edward Jones"]If it was so straightforward, there wouldn't be a whole industry built entirely on managing such exports.[/quote]

But there isn't. The industry is there to manage the transportation of the pet, the export certificates are always prepared by an OV. They don't hire their own OV, they use the local one.

[/quote]

But there is! Of course the local OV is used for completing the documents and the necessary clinical examination, but every other matter can be managed by a specialist company, including applying for the certificates and deciding when each aspect must be carried out. A client doesn't have to use such a company, and the local OV can take it upon themselves to provide such a service if they want to. But there's no compulsion for the OV to do so, implied or otherwise.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Edward Jones"]even though I'm not particularly comfortable with animals being subjected to a transatlantic flight purely on the whim of the owner, for example, when clearly it would be better for the pet to be re-homed locally)[/quote]

Is it really? A transatlantic flight is 8 hours. So 8 hours in a crate , well 10 with boarding, is worse than rehoming?

[/quote]

I'd be very surprised if a transatlantic relocation is 10 hours door to door, and I have personally treated a cat for dehydration following a transatlantic flight that was previously signed off as fit to travel. The stress caused by travel on all animals should not be underestimated, even if they seem fine on a superficial inspection.

RE: Pat passport advice

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:48:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]None [/quote]

Anthony, I was talking about OVs giving advice. I agree that non OV, not experienced etc should not be giving this advice.

And you know, european vets will know the same information as british vets in regards to passports. The rules are the same all over EU.

RE: Pat passport advice

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:45:23 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]All an OV must do is ensure that the appropriate documents are correctly completed.[/quote]

Exactly, so how do you do that unless you stay updated?

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Furthermore it would be completely impossible to remain updated on all exports as you suggest! [/quote]

But you don't have to stay updated on everything. APHA is one e-mail away and they will get back to you with the latest export requirements for any particular case.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]If it was so straightforward, there wouldn't be a whole industry built entirely on managing such exports.[/quote]

But there isn't. The industry is there to manage the transportation of the pet, the export certificates are always prepared by an OV. They don't hire their own OV, they use the local one.

Is it really? A transatlantic flight is 8 hours. So 8 hours in a crate , well 10 with boarding, is worse than rehoming?

RE: Pat passport advice

Anthony Todd — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:39:00 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]How many vets with language difficulty or just off the boat are OVs? [/quote]

None but they, and all new staff, often are asked these questions and most, if not all, of the incorrect or vague advice, IMHE, was given by inexperienced, or new staff and, I know, some new staff also have language difficulties, obviously, and more these days as the colonials have stopped coming.

RE: Pat passport advice

Rob Loxley — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:35:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]How often do you check, or is it now updated to you automatically?[/quote]

The last major changes were with the new-style passport in December 2014 and prior to that larger changes in Jan 2012

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]The website is very easy to follow and gives the client reminders to make sure vets do the right things at the right time[/quote]

Remember, no mention of any control measures against leishmania/dirofilaria/ehrlichia etc - as they are not part of the pet passport scheme - but are significant health concerns for travelling pets.

RE: Pat passport advice

Edward Jones — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:31:49 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]all OVs should be giving advice and should take responsibility for being updated on all exports[/quote]

All an OV must do is ensure that the appropriate documents are correctly completed. After that it's a matter of choice whether a further private service is provided. Furthermore it would be completely impossible to remain updated on all exports as you suggest! If it was so straightforward, there wouldn't be a whole industry built entirely on managing such exports.

I'm all for providing as complete a service as possible, and I will provide a great deal of support for people electing to voluntarily take their pets abroad with them*, but I make it clear exactly where and when my veterinary advice stops, and where the client's personal responsibility remains. Whilst I appreciate the effort that Martin has gone to, the trouble with providing lengthy documents is that errors can easily creep in (as demonstrated with the Bravecto error), rules can change without notice, and unless you've got a naturally legal mind your words can be subject to unintended interpretation.

Lastly, I will say that my position really much isn't different from anyone else's here, except I come from the more defensive position of saying "It's up to you to ensure you comply when you travel, but here's some tips which might help", rather than trying to be comprehensive.

*(even though I'm not particularly comfortable with animals being subjected to a transatlantic flight purely on the whim of the owner, for example, when clearly it would be better for the pet to be re-homed locally)

RE: Pat passport advice

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:30:44 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Purely because of language difficulties and/or [back in the day of Aussie locums straight off the boat] no knowledge of the regulations at all.[/quote]

How many vets with language difficulty or just off the boat are OVs?

RE: Pat passport advice

Anthony Todd — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:25:16 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Why does it matter if the vet is foreign or british born?[/quote]

Purely because of language difficulties and/or [back in the day of Aussie locums straight off the boat] no knowledge of the regulations at all.

Another reason for the client or, probably a casual caller ringing round for best price, to get the regulations from the horse' mouth before asking vague questions.

RE: Pat passport advice

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:19:08 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I would think, with the number of foreign vets working here, it would be vital to get the regulations dead right? [/quote]

Why does it matter if the vet is foreign or british born?

RE: Pat passport advice

Anthony Todd — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:37:07 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]As an OV who does some CPD, our advice is current![/quote]

How often do you check, or is it now updated to you automatically? [probably the regulations have crystallised by now??]

There used to be changes when there was a rabies outbreak somewhere overseas etc.

[quote user="robloxley"]

But you previously suggested that your staff were unable to give 'current' advice...[/quote]

Usually the advice was easy to give as it related to "our" services; certs, vaccines costs etc and not stuff current on the Govt site, and relating to the legal requirements, timing etc.

That was once we stopped staff giving off the cuff, sometimes vague or incorrect very vital advice!

The website is very easy to follow and gives the client reminders to make sure vets do the right things at the right time.

I would think, with the number of foreign vets working here, it would be vital to get the regulations dead right?

[I see there isn't a date on the Govt's site so I suppose they just update it as and when?]

RE: Pat passport advice

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:09:46 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Bravecto and Nexguard Spectra are long acting tablets that will control fleas, ticks, lungworm and heartworm[/quote]

Not sure that bravecto controls lungworm or heartworm?

[/quote]Good point, it needs to be re-worded.

RE: Pat passport advice

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 07:41:47 GMT

I think all OVs should be giving advice and should take responsibility for being updated on all exports. Yes, charge for it, don't give it for free and never over the phone. Get the client in, charge a consultation fee and give them a check list.

What would you think about a surgeon acting in the same manner? Do we send clients home to research a condition and then just come back with their decision?

And reception, IMO, should not give any kind of advice over the phone. They are there to be nice to people, book appointments and take payments.

RE: Pat passport advice

Rob Loxley — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 21:52:07 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Not "no advice" just sensible advice to get detailed advice from the place where it all comes from, which will be always current, or at least more current than the vague unspecific advice on here![/quote]

As an OV who does some CPD, our advice is current!

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Some were then able to come back with specific queries, which we could then answer specifically and accurately[/quote]

But you previously suggested that your staff were unable to give 'current' advice... Which is it??!