Preliminary Investigation Committee question

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Beats — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 19:32:35 GMT

[quote user="Robert FalconerTaylor"]...but RCVS putting up annual fees 3% to cover rising costs of - among other things - DC[/quote]

precisely, be careful what you wish for. I was quite happy with my letter 9 months after a complaint advising me to improve my communication skills while simultaneously referring to me by the incorrect gender pronoun, thanking me for my complaint and displaying a catalogue of other poor written communication techniques. They were spending my money, and yours, on this. I imagine insisting on more flowery letters and thoughtful wording would cost me/us more... Equally re the timing, had I actually been incompetent, I would have been able to continue practising merrily - not great if there is actually a problem with someone, but as a selfish bread-winner quite good to know that the amount of time it would take to remove my license would give me plenty of time to make contingenices :-)

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Robert FalconerTaylor — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 18:06:35 GMT

...but RCVS putting up annual fees 3% to cover rising costs of - among other things - DC.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 18:05:52 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]As long as you're not... [quote user="Anthony Todd"]being a snowflake[/quote]...?[/quote]

Yes, exactly!

I doubt if many modvets would have coped with my first boss, not that I had any special resilience, in fact very little I suspect.

It wouldn't have made me give up my vocation, 'cos it did "take me too long", but I learned, and got much quicker and better.

[One bovine rectal, then straight into the most intensive dairying area in the world, they will attest]

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Rob Loxley — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:52:15 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Second that. It's far too easy to complain. Unlike moaning at your local Tesco's, where a person can simply move jobs, in our case our livelihood is on the line, the stakes are far higher.[/quote]

And the effect on morale, even if groundless, is much greater!

[/quote]

As long as you're not... [quote user="Anthony Todd"]being a snowflake[/quote]...?

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 11:23:25 GMT

And the effect on morale, even if groundless, is much greater!

I hope it is, or will be, a requirement that complainers to the RC have to have written confirmation of the response from the practice before their complaint to the RC can be considered.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 09:18:00 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]I think a fee to lodge a complaint is fair (I think we have this in NSW now but it's only about $10 - not exactly sure) - might weed out a few that won't even want to pay a few pounds ! [/quote]

Second that. It's far too easy to complain. Unlike moaning at your local Tesco's, where a person can simply move jobs, in our case our livelihood is on the line, the stakes are far higher.

Neil

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

bevs2251 — Sat, 23 Jun 2018 03:39:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]PS Leaving practice because of a complaint is being a snowflake.[/quote]

I disagree too. If this was the vet's first complaint that dragged on without much in-house support, and he/she was early in their career already questioning whether to stay or not (poor remuneration, long hours, lack of appreciation etc), then I can understand them leaving the profession altogether.

I've been thru this myself. My case dragged on for 6 months, I used my own PI insurance (little in-house support from practice owner). It was eventually dismissed but with a black mark at the end advising I refer any case deemed beyond my or the practice's capabilities. 2 dogs died of snake bite within 1 hour of presentation. This practice did not carry antivenene. Os couldn't be contacted to refer elsewhere after they first called us - relatively new nurse not aware we had no antivenene. Turned up and all my fault both died apparently, even though I started initial Rx. Had to send the nurse to get some antivenene from a neighbouring practice. One died within 30 minutes of arrival (nurse hadn't even returned !). Second died 30 minutes later after initial Rx and IV started - didn't even get a chance to administer the antivenene (has to be given over 30 minutes anyway so wouldn't have helped)! The outcome would have been the same anywhere else. I defy any vet to have been able to save these dogs in that time-frame ! I seriously considered leaving the profession after that (20 years out at that time), and I'm no snowflake (33 years out now).

I think a fee to lodge a complaint is fair (I think we have this in NSW now but it's only about $10 - not exactly sure) - might weed out a few that won't even want to pay a few pounds ! A mentor system for vets with an official complaint to deal with would be helpful - perhaps a specific person in your veterinary association could take on this role, or other older seasoned members of the profession.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

John Wessels — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:39:55 GMT

that explains it, thanks Gillian.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Niall Taylor — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:26:58 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] Leaving practice because of a complaint is being a snowflake.[/quote]

If one complaint really was the reason for someone leaving the profession then I also might be questioning why they were in the job in the first place but it is rarely that simple and straightforward. For one thing a major factor in the original anecdote seemed to be the pathetic undermining of the young vet in question by practice management, despite the findings of the VDS and the complaints process. Even still it would be a shame if all managers were being tarred with the same brush and the vet concerned felt it necessary to leave the entire profession rather than just switch to another job in a different practice - surely there must be more to it than that?

Niall

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Niall Taylor — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:20:52 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]I've known owners take their pets abroad before the 21 day period has elapsed...[/quote]

Then they are in breach of the regs:

http://apha.defra.gov.uk/External_OV_Instructions/Export_Instructions/Certification_Procedures/Small_Animal_Exports/index.htm

4. General scheme requirements for exports from UK to EU countries are:

... 21 day wait before being eligible to travel to other EU countries

Oops!

Niall

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 14:09:22 GMT

John Weasels...others have kindly answered your question already, but, just to confirm, my statement about the 7 month time lag between rabies vaccination and returning to the UK was for regulations in 2008..when my complaint happened.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 14:06:22 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]And suicide wasn't an issue for the profession?[/quote]

That is a much more serious issue and I had no intention of connecting just leaving practice with it.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:52:37 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]And you can be sure that it is the most caring, conscientious and hard-working ones who are most likely to do this. [/quote]

Not my experience either, mind you that was back in the day when vet's seemed different in their ability to cope with practice and clients.

[/quote]

And suicide wasn't an issue for the profession?

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:48:57 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]And anyway, something which incurs a complaint is never just about the individual, it is a systems issue and needs treating as such. [/quote]

I've never had a RC complaint and my vets never had one to the RC either. The complaints from clients were usually justified though, and they seemed to learn from them.

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]And you can be sure that it is the most caring, conscientious and hard-working ones who are most likely to do this. [/quote]

Not my experience either, mind you that was back in the day when vet's seemed different in their ability to cope with practice and clients.

I think I've mentioned this before, but a friend of mine employs a vet who walks out of the consultation when a client questions some advice or opinion.....

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]And you can be sure that it is the most caring, conscientious and hard-working ones who are most likely to do this. [/quote]

Again, not my experience, usually the ones I knew agree [sometimes grudgingly] that the client had a point, but then the number of vets changing careers were very small.

I did have one excellent vet in every way who became a photographer!!

[BTW, big headline in the Daily Moan this week of doctors leaving the NHS in big numbers.]

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:48:18 GMT

[quote user="John Wessels"]just wandering where the 7 months Gillian mentioned, comes from...[/quote]

I assume she was recalling a complaint from pre-2012, when the previous rules applied.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Er, having been rather smug, and even condescending, in my advice just to go onto the Government website and how clear it was etc etc. I did.[/quote]

There is a reason we have put effort into providing clients with Pet Passport travel information ourselves

[quote user="Edward Jones"]I've known owners take their pets abroad before the 21 day period has elapsed, and returning to the UK after. I've no idea if this is because other European countries don't have the 21 day requirement or if it's simply lax enforcement[/quote]

Lax enforcement/'interpretation of the rules' (as you will) - most routes (and certainly Eurotunnel) do no pet passport checks on the UK to France journey, only on the return journey into the UK. From Eurotunnel website "Are there any pet checks when I travel from the UK?: No mandatory checks are carried out when travelling with a pet from the UK to the Continent. However you will be asked to confirm you are travelling with your pet(s) on arrival at check-in." This means that it is worth advising clients to check the microchip is working before going abroad, since it may well not be checked on the way out, and will therefore only be picked up when they are denied re-entry...

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Edward Jones — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:36:30 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]The dog can travel to France 3 weeks after the vaccination[/quote]

I've known owners take their pets abroad before the 21 day period has elapsed, and returning to the UK after. I've no idea if this is because other European countries don't have the 21 day requirement or if it's simply lax enforcement. The UK government website seems to only concerns itself with returning cats/dogs/ferrets to the UK.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Jo Dyer — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:30:51 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I was talking to a friend of mine who is a GP (human) earlier in the year, we had both recently had complaints made about us to our respective practices. She was very surprised that I was dealing with the complaint myself, in her practice a complaint against a member of staff would always be dealt with by someone who wasn't directly involved in the case.[/quote]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I think that's the wrong approach on a number of levels.[/quote]

I disagree Anthony. I used to deal with any complaints incurred by my employed vets. Obviously I got all their input and information about the details, and then kept it away from them as much as they were comfortable with. They were fully occupied with vetting, they didn't have mental or physical time and energy to deal with complaints. And anyway, something which incurs a complaint is never just about the individual, it is a systems issue and needs treating as such.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]PS Leaving practice because of a complaint is being a snowflake.[/quote]

Totally disagree again. Veterinary surgeons are talented people with a lot of very desirable workplace qualities. They are intelligent, hard-working, problem-solving, caring and conscientious. They will put up with working long hours for very average remuneration, because they like being vets. But if that balance swings in the wrong direction due to lack of support in practice and lack of appreciation by clients to the point of ridiculous complaints to RCVS which then drag on and appear to be being taken seriously, some will vote with their feet and find a job in which they are more appreciated. And you can be sure that it is the most caring, conscientious and hard-working ones who are most likely to do this.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:57:28 GMT

Can someone else look at the Govt. website and see if it as unhelpful as I found it when I actually looked!

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

John Wessels — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:47:44 GMT

Hmm, I thought one can take a pet to France 21 day after rabies vaccination.

As far as i'm aware the rabies vaccination and a microchip number is all that's required to issue a pet passport.

return to Uk requires treatment against Echinicoccus 24 to 120 hrs before re-entry.

just wandering where the 7 months Gillian mentioned, comes from...

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Rob Davis — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:37:53 GMT

[quote user="John Wessels"]

Gillian,

tell me how ''the process' works, how long after the rabies vaccination can the dog travel to France and how long before it can re- enter the UK?

thanks

[/quote]

I'm not Gillian, but...

The dog can travel to France 3 weeks after the vaccination, and can return to the UK any time. It will have to have tapeworm treatment administered by a vet between 1 and 5 days of the return to the UK, but for short trips this could be done in the UK prior to departure, so in theory the dog could turn straight round and come back on the next ferry.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:24:25 GMT

[quote user="John Wessels"]

Gillian,

tell me how ''the process' works, how long after the rabies vaccination can the dog travel to France and how long before it can re- enter the UK?

thanks

[/quote]

Er, having been rather smug, and even condescending, in my advice just to go onto the Government website and how clear it was etc etc. I did.

It's fine if you are entering the UK with a pet for the first time, [from anywhere in the world] but nothing at all about leaving the UK with a pet and then coming back!!

This is what the vast majority of inquiries would want to know!

I suppose you could sort of assume the things you have to do before re-entering the UK could be done here before you leave but, if so, and blindingly obvious to some, it confused me and would confuse many.

A sentence at the beginning to that effect would help!

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

John Wessels — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:52:08 GMT

Gillian,

tell me how ''the process' works, how long after the rabies vaccination can the dog travel to France and how long before it can re- enter the UK?

thanks

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:36:10 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]in her practice a complaint against a member of staff would always be dealt with by someone who wasn't directly involved in the case.[/quote]

I think that's the wrong approach on a number of levels.

The "someone" is likely, or perceived to be, getting the facts wrong and definitely on the side of the vet.

The approach could be seen as a fob-off [see recent hospital horror stories].

Any response by the complainant could be deflected by the third party as "that is what I was told"

The complainant will be much less likely, IMHO, to be satisfied.

PS Leaving practice because of a complaint is being a snowflake.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 09:12:40 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

When I employed thirteen vets quite a lot of my time was handling complaints and a real stinker took hours to deal with and in most situations prevented any escalation to RCVS.

I am concerned about the stress experienced by younger vets who have not the experience or the time handling their own complaints which is much harder than for a third party. Perhaps groups of practices need to dedicate personnel and time to a complaints department like every other company has to nowadays. The changing structure of practice where there is not an owner who has been there for a long time and who is known locally might be contributing to bypassing the practice and aggrieved clients going straight to the RCVS.

[/quote]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a GP (human) earlier in the year, we had both recently had complaints made about us to our respective practices. She was very surprised that I was dealing with the complaint myself, in her practice a complaint against a member of staff would always be dealt with by someone who wasn't directly involved in the case.

RE: Preliminary Investigation Committee question

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 Jun 2018 19:08:31 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]1. Have you brought this complaint to the attention of the practice?[/quote]

"Yes, I told them I was reporting them to the RCVS!" so question could be better, and should include a reply document from the "concernee" practice.

Then it's a good improvement.