Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 10:22:05 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I'm a recent grad working at a busy mixed practice with a history of very poor retention of new graduate vets, while its not a bad practice its not one that permits much of a life 50hr week +oohs etc and if boss was supportive keen teacher etc I wouldn't mind to much but as they arn't I'm finding it fairly unrewarding.[/quote]The others are trying to be constructive but this sentence says it all.

My advice: Leopards don't change their spots, find a another job and walk. I know things are different now but I wouldn't/didn't put up with conditions like that when I graduated and they were considered normal! I had 6 jobs in 18 months before I settled I then bought the practice and I'm still here 38 years later.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Anthony Todd — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 10:19:02 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I was in mixed practice at the start and didn't do my first botch spay for 18 months. [/quote]

No typo, that's unless you're perfect first off, which I've never been, or seen anyone who is.

And most academic flyers would do well to realise it.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Anthony Todd — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 09:55:07 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]you will learn a lot without realising,[/quote]

One aspect which has not been mentioned is that the new-grad goes from memory and logic knowledge and training [exams etc] to a largely manual career [surgery, animal handling and exam, client handling] and it is largely impossible to learn this; you have to do it, and again and again.

Bit like playing the piano.....

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

bob lehner — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 09:43:04 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"] I was in mixed practice at the start and didn't do my first botch spay for 18 months. [/quote]

Oh dear - hope that was a typo and not a reflection on your surgical skills???

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 08:42:34 GMT

As you haven't replied, I've read back and attempted to read between the lines (so of course, this could be incorrect).

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]while its not a bad practice its not one that permits much of a life 50hr week +oohs etc[/quote]

That is very tiring, doable, but you need epic sleep to recover properly, so I agree no time for much else. 'Supported' or not, you will learn a lot without realising, on how to cope on your own, which is no bad thing. I had a couple jobs like this in the beginning which laid the foundation for my ideas on the good and bad aspects of the job and career, and how to select my next position, assert myself and ultimately run my own surgery. These practices sometimes resign themselves to using new grads in this way, which is a shame all round.

Sometimes long hours can be self induced and so ask for ideas on how to circumvent this/prioritise etc

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] limited support.[/quote][quote user="An On MRCVS"]issues I have with the job[/quote]

Could we actually be talking about emotional support here, and that's why you are not specific? I found working long hours induced a lot of anxiety and I resented using my free time to research cases and do CPD (this was pre internet forums, remember!). I felt guilty and confused, as I wanted to be a vet so much and was as enthusiastic as it was possible to be. As I got older, a dear friend attempted suicide and others completed, I realised what a hidden undercurrent of distress and anxiety exists in the profession, and resolved never to push myself that far.

We are all talking about it now, which is good, but it's important to take a positive view on how to survive and ultimately thrive, rather than descend into a cycle of self pity which can get out of control.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

David Mills — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 23:19:44 GMT

Very good advice from Jill Butterworth

As an employer of new grads, I would say the following (disclaimer - I don't know much about your situ, so this generic)

1. Don't be in a rush to do procedures, ticking off this or that. You can learn from every surgery, for years. I was in mixed practice at the start and didn't do my first botch spay for 18 months.

2. Your boss, unless a complete berk, will be aware of your predicament but may not be able to articulate it.

3. Take constructive criticism. I remember being told by my first boss "come on, you need to be more bold now" it came as a shock, but also was astute and very good motivator.

4. Don't moan to the boss, as others have said. Identify say three key areas where you need most support. Don't flood with small matters that won't change.

5. A lot depends on your personality as a vet. This is not a criticism but some people are more suited to your situation than others, probably busy, lots sole charge etc. If that's not for you, then be honest about it.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Sarah Keir — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 22:11:04 GMT

An On, please message me if you are working in Yorkshire!

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

bob lehner — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 21:03:11 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Hello I'm a recent grad working at a busy mixed practice with a history of very poor retention of new graduate vets, while its not a bad practice its not one that permits much of a life 50hr week +oohs etc and if boss was supportive keen teacher etc I wouldn't mind to much but as they arn't I'm finding it fairly unrewarding

[/quote]

have you started the RCVS PDP programme for new grads.

If so, it is very much part of the deal that your bosses are involved. See what it says on the RCVS website - lots of helpful info.

e.g.:

''Graduates or members returning to work after a career break must be supported and assisted by senior colleagues until they are confident of their own ability to provide a full professional service. The RCVS strongly recommends that employers support their continued development through an appropriate appraisal system, to enable them to complete the PDP.

The PDP is more effective if the new or recent graduate can discuss their performance and development with a senior colleague or more experienced peer who will act as their mentor. The mentor should be familiar with their work, and should be the graduate’s first point of contact if they experience a problem and need to seek advice about their work. It will help if the employer allows the graduate some time each week to update their PDP records and case notes. Keeping a tally of cases should not take long if it is done regularly. Writing up case reports may take a little longer, but encourages more effective reflection on performance. It is also valuable preparation for those who will go on to study for a postgraduate certificate. Keeping reflective notes on cases for the PDP provides the evidence that the graduate is making clinical governance part of their professional activities, as required by the Code of Professional Conduct. Case notes and reports could also be used as part of clinical meetings within the practice as part of clinical governance.

Opportunities to take part in performance appraisal will vary from practice to practice and, in many cases, may be informal. Practices accredited under the RCVS Practice Standards Scheme need to ensure that the CPD records of their staff are up to date and this should include the PDP. The PDP can form a central part of appraisal meetings with a more recently qualified employee and will thus serve as evidence that they are undertaking their CPD. If PDP records are used to discuss the outcome of clinical cases and to monitor the new graduate’s progress, this may also help to demonstrate that the practice is monitoring its performance and taking part in clinical governance.

If the practice does not have a formal appraisal system in place, the employer should still make some time available on a regular basis to discuss how the graduate is progressing, so they can have an informed third party’s view of their progress. This need not take long, but it would help to arrange this in advance, so the graduate knows what to expect and can be prepared with any questions and concerns they might want to raise.''

i suspect your boss may never have heard of PDP - you should diplomaticlaly draw it to his/her attention....

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 19:27:15 GMT

A basic business premise is go to the boss with solutions, not problems. Don't forget your problems will be different than theirs, but amount to the same thing: the practice, the animals and the other staff lose out.

Identify what exactly it is you need support with. Saying something so generic could sound flaky, so articulate it.

Possible examples:

Bitch spays: Figure out an easy way for the other vets to tweak their day, so they can easily help you out if need be without burdening them. It might be as simple as they take their coffee break whilst you are doing bitch spays so they can be near to hand to call for advice for example. My second boss used to open her post with her feet on the desk whilst I operated, in the next room but not watching over me.

Discussing difficult cases: note them down and see if you can't have case discussions weekly or whatever. Tell clients you want to do this and will get back to them. Done the right way, they love it, they feel they are getting more opinions for the price of one.

Trouble with nurses: This can be a significant problem, you need them to be tactful, encouraging, gently stop you doing something daft, and have their respect. You need to reciprocate with all of the above. And buy them cake. Often.

Their problem is staff retention, so you need to let them know what would make you stay longer.

Ask advice here on specific problems too, because you will get about 20 vets giving you ideas on how to fix the problem. I defy you to come up with something we haven't experienced.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 15:27:50 GMT

I agree that finding the areas where you feel the need for support and how to achieve it is important. For example, is it surgery that worries you? Often new grads end up being mainly given castrates, and not getting the experience with more difficult routine things like bitch spays. Any chance of scrubbing in with more experienced vets or are you always consulting when they are doing surgery? For medical cases a chance to sit down and review them in a more relaxed situation can be useful - over lunch? even if only a sandwich at the surgery (you may need to buy the sandwiches!)

Identifying a few good practical CPD courses for some things can be useful - dental extractions is a good one!

Communication over your expectations is key as well, like others have said. Setting a time frame over which you expect to be able to manage x, y and z types of ops/ cases might encourage them to realise a bit of short term pain time spent teaching leads to long term gain satisfied, bonded employees. However, if their expectations of case management don't line up with yours at all, and you don't think they ever will, may not be worth investing too much of anyone's time.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Anthony Todd — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 15:01:12 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Some bosses are easier to talk to than others![/quote]

So true, but mine never offered advice or support but gave it freely, after crushing criticism and negative support.....

You'll have to be specific in your questions as "I don't feel supported" is definitely not the way to approach the problem you have.

RE: Recent graduate - staying in a practice with limited support.

Julie Innes — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 12:07:29 GMT

I think writing down the key points that you would like addressed is a start. Instead of saying "I don't feel supported", as an employer it would be better to hear "I would like more help or guidance with x or y". Maybe you could arrange a regular time slot each week where you could discuss cases and procedures with each other? I think it is a good idea to have positive changes you would like to see, rather than a list of gripes.

Some bosses are easier to talk to than others! Good luck! And remember there are lots of us out there looking for keen GP vets, so you don't have to put up with it!