Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Cool — Fri, 18 May 2018 11:19:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

It appears that males now find this an unappealing career and I find that most disturbing. I fear it reflects the lack of opportunities that now seems to be the case.

Progression from assistant to partner (and its rewards) was the 'male' expectation. Now there seems to be a buffer to be hit, remain as an 'assistant' become a JVP or a 'Clinical Director'.

Nearly sorted the bank out so I will be advertising for someone to join me here! Longer term they will have the opportunity to take over should they wish!!

[/quote]

That is the truth of the matter Bob though many of us may not accept it. Another factor is the low earning potential compared to medical colleagues and even trades men etc as mentioned by some on this forum. I am not being pessimistic but it is reality.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

bob lehner — Fri, 18 May 2018 10:44:56 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I think the thing often forgotten when discussing male/female is the change in what veterinary practice actually is. These days the vast majority of work is small animal and I think this appeals more to traditional female character traits[/quote]

Yes - agree with Michael - SA practice is I believe generally seen as a bit of a girly 'fluffy bunny' type job these days - and thus going to be less attractive to teenage boys still at school.

FA and Eq practice still does have more of a 'manly' image.

(Tho' it goes without saying that there are plenty of wonderful male SA vets and ditto female FA/Eq vets).

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 18 May 2018 09:13:04 GMT

The disparity in earnings is because people will pay you because you can do something, not because you know something, or how to do it.

Cleaners in London get up to £15/hr usually in cash..............

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Julie Innes — Fri, 18 May 2018 09:07:58 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Ditto. Mine has zero qualifications (or he did until he got a fork lift and scissor lift ticket), left school probably before 16. He was a farmer when I met him, now a builder. Earns a bit less than me, but not a huge amount. Works 8-4 Mon-Fri (8-3 on a Friday). Absolutely no out of hours, weekends or late finishes, gets free accommodation Mon-Fri included in his wages, several other perks including left over materials etc (has just built us a very nice/patio decking area from free site left-overs that we priced up and would have been £2k if we'd had to buy new materials). Used to infuriate me when I trudged in at 7pm and he'd been home and sitting in front of the fire for 3 hours already. He always said "you shouldn't have worked so hard at school then".[/quote]

Sympathies! Yes, my husband was under the illusion that I would be well off when we first met- he was in for a surprise

Seriously, I wish more people should be brave enough to start up on their own. There is a lot to be said for the traditional 2-3 vet practice. I am struggling to stay small, I don't know where are the potential new clients come from (do people have more animals now? Is it to do with the ease of their acquisituion via the internet?) I don't know, I just feel that the demand is definitely there.

I don't mind having a female dominated profession, and we have a lovely team. The only downside is that I currently have 2 team members on maternity leave, with another one back just recently and another 2 recently married....It does make things a bit difficult, as most of my staff are now part-time with childcare issues. In this day and age in theory their other halves could take paternity instead, but it does depend on who earns more and what women want. I had 3 lots of maternity leave, so I can't complain! And I understand childcare issues- I'm happy for staff to bring their children to work if need be (I have always had to bring mine on holidays/ when not well, we have a huge downstairs staff area originally just for that!) but sometimes it's not feasible.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

gdbvet — Fri, 18 May 2018 09:01:18 GMT

Beg to differ.money has never been cheaper to borrow,and corporates as neighbours are hardly a hindrance.of course it presupposes adequate surgical skills and a modicum of personality.most large Cities have dedicated emergency centres offering after hrs back up.for the life of me I can’t understand this professions pessimism.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Wren — Fri, 18 May 2018 08:27:03 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

My husband left school at 16 with no qualifications and joined the Royal Navy. Since I met him he has consistently out-earned me, gets lots of leave time, could have retired at 40 with full retraining paid for, and gets a great pension!

Who IS the clever one??!

[/quote]

Ditto. Mine has zero qualifications (or he did until he got a fork lift and scissor lift ticket), left school probably before 16. He was a farmer when I met him, now a builder. Earns a bit less than me, but not a huge amount. Works 8-4 Mon-Fri (8-3 on a Friday). Absolutely no out of hours, weekends or late finishes, gets free accommodation Mon-Fri included in his wages, several other perks including left over materials etc (has just built us a very nice/patio decking area from free site left-overs that we priced up and would have been £2k if we'd had to buy new materials). Used to infuriate me when I trudged in at 7pm and he'd been home and sitting in front of the fire for 3 hours already. He always said "you shouldn't have worked so hard at school then".

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 18 May 2018 00:35:27 GMT

If anything I'd say its harder to start a practice than it ever has been. There is more competition in terms of other vets and other sources of supply (like the internet). Client and vet expectations have risen so you can't really start small, you need Xray/ultrasound/blood machine etc on day 1. Surgery needs to look good.

The town I'm from has twice as many vet practices now as there was 15 years ago.....

I think the thing often forgotten when discussing male/female is the change in what veterinary practice actually is. These days the vast majority of work is small animal and I think this appeals more to traditional female character traits. Without doubt there are aspects of farm work better suited to taller, more physically strong members of society (who are more likely to be male). With the greatest respect a 8 stone 5 foot tall girl wouldn't have got the bulls feet roped up and trimmed that I did this morning. My experience of farm only vets is a greater proportion of them are male (I know some truly excellent female farm vets, but their size and strength can let them down).

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

gdbvet — Fri, 18 May 2018 00:15:15 GMT

Don’t stay employed then.start your own practice.better money very quickly plus building up a very valuable asset.don’t whine.be proactive.practice has been good to me.still a great job after 40 yrs.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 17 May 2018 23:26:27 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

...start on your own...

[/quote]

I'm totally with Anthony. It's relatively easy to start a veterinary practice (think about it, you don't have to even be a vet). Later, when you've made your business profitable, the running of it can become stressful, but by then you have choices, both in the way you run it and the way you problem solve. And, you can sell it when you're done, in 2 or 20 years.

I know of an heroic vet who started her practice whilst popping out her 4th child.

You don't need to be a man to start a practice, you just need balls.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Kate Richardson — Thu, 17 May 2018 22:30:15 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Instead we have corporate groups trying to undercut each other.[/quote]

But corporate prices are often more than private practices - they just loss lead on headline things (vaccine and neutering), whilst everything else costs more. Meanwhile 50% of profit goes to shareholders rather than towards salaries/investing back into the business...

[/quote]

So not true. I work for a corporate. We do not underprice vaccinations and neutering. And they invest a lot back into the practice group I work for. There are a lot of myths surrounding the evil corporate practices.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Stephen Pointing — Thu, 17 May 2018 20:00:17 GMT

I remember attending a lecture on this at a NZVA conference over 10 year ago. The Dean of one of the Canadian vet schools had looked into the gender balance of all the vet schools in the USA and Canada and found that the profession was becoming increasingly feminised. On enquiring more deeply it basically came down to the fact that male students with the necessary grades for vet school also had the necessary grades for medical and dental schools and choose the latter two because of the better lifetime pay associated with these professions whereas for female students the levels of pay were not the most important deciding factor. I suspect that continues to be the case right up to the present day.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Julie Innes — Thu, 17 May 2018 19:22:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Why don't some of you bright sparks start on your own right in the centre of all the corporates; that's what I'd do.[/quote]

I did! Not as easy to outsource everything as you think though, and good locums are in great demand! And, although I'm better off than before, I'm still not rich. However, I never did this job for the money. II' live quite cheaply

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:15:43 GMT

Why don't some of you bright sparks start on your own right in the centre of all the corporates; that's what I'd do.

Out source the wages and HR, get a good accountant and work your little sox off!

But the satisfaction [and there seem to be good dedicated locums who can hold the fort when you have a break] is enormous to say nothing of the money and no bloody nights and no ordure and bean counting from your boss.....

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

vs0u — Thu, 17 May 2018 16:28:55 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Instead we have corporate groups trying to undercut each other.[/quote]

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:42:17 GMT

I suspect the key issue here is money. Not sure why women should accept the idea of lower pay than men but the real answer is that vets do not get paid well enough. If that is the case then we are not charging enough.

If this is a luxury item then people should be willing to pay for that luxury. Instead we have corporate groups trying to undercut each other.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Julie Innes — Thu, 17 May 2018 09:12:47 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]If you consider the cost of university (possibly £80-£100K), compound interest on the student loan (£60-100K), but also five years lost earnings (£150-£500k), this leaves the average young vet way behind and makes you wonder who the clever ones are...[/quote]

I often point this out to prospective vet students. They all think vets are rich!

Who IS the clever one??!

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 17 May 2018 08:27:44 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]Main reason I think, at least here in Australia, is the poor remuneration - men get loads more money as tradies here than they ever would as a vet. More females entering the trades now as well. They are earning good income well before vets even graduate and can basically learn on the job ![/quote]

I have never actually heard anyone in the UK give that as a reason, but the comment on earnings is definitely true (with nationwide variability). I'm currently renovating a house in the south east, and plumbers/electricians charge £200-400/day; painter/decorators approx £200. These folk are often bright but perhaps not grade A students, but they all have excellent arithmetic skills and are shocked when I complain a little that they earn more than my daily locum rate.

If you consider the cost of university (possibly £80-£100K), compound interest on the student loan (£60-100K), but also five years lost earnings (£150-£500k), this leaves the average young vet way behind and makes you wonder who the clever ones are...

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

bevs2251 — Thu, 17 May 2018 05:25:49 GMT

This situation is not restricted to the UK. Same in Australia, USA, Canada. Approx 50/50 males to females in my year (1981-1985) but only about 60 in the year as compared to 120+ now (Sydney University, now 90% female, mostly Asian - full fee payers also).

Main reason I think, at least here in Australia, is the poor remuneration - men get loads more money as tradies here than they ever would as a vet. More females entering the trades now as well. They are earning good income well before vets even graduate and can basically learn on the job ! Vet is seen as a 'soft' profession so appeals to females more. Most entering today will not go into large/mixed animal practice except for the graduates from 2 of our Universities that deliberately select for candidates interested in going into farm practice (so admitted based on other criteria as well as high school grades).

Can't see a solution unless the pay improves. Dental graduates often on 6 figure salary within 2 years out of Uni - most employed vets would never reach this level of remuneration. As a 'luxury' profession, can't see that things will change any time soon.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 May 2018 14:27:34 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"] but only after the sex discrimination act was passed were more women accepted. My year (78-83) was 50% female. [/quote]

When I applied for a bursary to do Vet science in Oz there were no female applicants from NZ and only one female in our year at Brisbane. [no vet school in NZ at that stage [1961].

As well, bursaries were for LA practice, funded by dairy companies, so no SA work progression and few dedicated SA practices and only in the main centres.

There was a saying that "anything smaller than a pig was a parasite" so you can see the SA practitioner was a lesser breed then.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 16 May 2018 13:40:35 GMT

I‘m pretty sure I’ve said this here before but, when researching for a talk to a local group about being a vet (and a woman) I found a statistic that in (I think) the 40s or 50s there were 65% female applicants to vet schools, but only 5% or so of the admission were female due to the massive sex discrimination at that time. So it had always been a profession that appeals to women, but only after the sex discrimination act was passed were more women accepted. My year (78-83) was 50% female.

I wonder now if it is seen more as a female profession therefore attracting more women?

Anthony i think if anything the universities now focus very heavily on the motivation of the potential students. They all expect lots of work experience, references from vets etc. And most also interview I think. I think as boys seem to mature slightly slower if they maybe don’t decide to do all the work experience etc as soon (I know this is a judgemental sounding statement but from experience of my own children and those of frlends, the girls seem to have their career plan sorted earlier than the boys).

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 May 2018 13:30:04 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It is the apparent fact that males now find this an unappealing career that I find most disturbing.[/quote]

Fair enough, I didn't realise that males may not even apply from lack of desire as well as their suggested realisation that they wouldn't get a place because of their assumed UCAS grades.

Then you add their poorer A levels which exacerbates the trend.

Incidentally, back in the day in NZ there weren't that many applicants even though we were given good grants and bursaries, and very very few females.

Vet science was regarded as the poor cousin of medicine and dentistry and it may well be that this applies now, added to the reducing chance of running your own practice.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 May 2018 13:14:44 GMT

It appears that males now find this an unappealing career and I find that most disturbing. I fear it reflects the lack of opportunities that now seems to be the case.

Progression from assistant to partner (and its rewards) was the 'male' expectation. Now there seems to be a buffer to be hit, remain as an 'assistant' become a JVP or a 'Clinical Director'.

Nearly sorted the bank out so I will be advertising for someone to join me here! Longer term they will have the opportunity to take over should they wish!!

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:56:56 GMT

[quote user="Phil R."]

a call to get young girls into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths), as they are under represented.

I then thought, well, the reverse is true in the veterinary profession. Should we be campaigning to get more boys to become vets?

[/quote]

Two very different circumstances though, but with possibly the same outcome! The lack of girls going into STEM based careers is due to a long history of this being a male domain. Efforts are in place to make these subjects more accessible to girls. Obviously men have always been encouraged to go into these careers.

This has happened already in vet medicine...women were finally accepted into the course after many years of being excluded and now outnumber men. Maybe that will happen one day in STEM subjects too. I wouldn't be surprised!

Why can't we just have a level playing field, and not worry at all about the subsequent gender (in)balance? Does it matter?

Oh, and for the record, I think Anthony is wrong when he blames the low numbers of male vets on a poor University selection process. We get much fewer boys applying for work experience placements than girls, so they simply don't appear to want this career.

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:29:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

This has been raised before and has a very easy explanation and correction.

It is the selection process!

[/quote]

My understanding is that this is not the case... it's not that males are applying to the course and not being accepted, it is that males aren't applying. The gender balance of those getting a place is approximately the same as the gender balance of those applying.

Is that because selection is too reliant on A level results, and that male students aren't getting the A level grades so aren't even applying? Perhaps, but courses such as mechanical engineering require similar grades, and the applicants there are still primarily male.

It seems more like either the course or the profession are not that appealing to male students. Which is trickier to manage.

As to whether it would be a good thing....I'm not sure it would really make any difference. Theoretically more gender balanced work places would be a good thing, but in my experience haven't been any different on a day to day basis!

RE: Would more men in the profession be a good thing?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:26:35 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]Universities are faced with double digits for each place with straight As at A level[/quote]

Seems that selection is partly based on "UCAS points" which is A levels by a different name and I'll bet females get more than males, no mention of any other criteria on this site....

https://www.ucas.com/ucas/tariff-calculator [and other sites too, WHICH has a list]