Bad debt

RE: Bad debt

grumpyoldman — Fri, 18 May 2018 23:36:31 GMT

Nearly had another one today : cat dislocated hip , ga xr manipulation and replacement etc came to £150 .Client Wriggling and squirming in the waiting room " cat did not cost him anything etc so why did he have to pay ? Standard response "YOU have a responsibility to ensure your pets welfare needs are met ,our job is to help you fulfil YOUR responsibility to your pet ,unfortunately YOU have to pay us for that". I think he paid because he has 3 springers he does care about and he sensed he was pissing me off.

RE: Bad debt

rhmrcvs — Thu, 17 May 2018 22:19:50 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

In my first job 1996 -2001, I used to help with debt collection. We didn't use a debt collection firm, we would send out 3 reminders, before a fourth letter threatening court action after 10 days. Almost all would pay up on the threat of court action. Those we did take through the small claims court, we almost always got the money.

I remember one clearly; a Siamese cat breeder that ran up a debt of around £2000, and had done similar at other practices too. It took 3 court judgements, around £1000 in legal fees, but it ended up with bailiffs at her home to seize goods and equipment to the value of - she paid them in cash on the spot, plus the legal fees. She later, just by chance, had a visit from HMRC too!

Another one: I saw a PDSA client OOH with a dyspnoeic Rottweiler, pts. no money. We started pursuing the debt of around £120, and I had a telephone call form the citizens advice bureau explaining that Mr X has no money, has lost his job, etc etc etc, and could we waive the debt. I responded "absolutely not, but we would accept £10 a month for year, and where else could you get a free 0% 1 year loan" CAB went on to explain that after monthly outgoings Mr X has a -ve balance. I therefore suggested, without being harsh, that the money it cost to feed a large dog every month could be used to pay the debt. Long pause, then they admitted he had bought another puppy for £500!! Didn't get the money.

[/quote]have had to deal with cab a few times trying to assist clients wriggling out of paying. They seem to be terribly naive about the fibs their customers tell. Re the rottie puppy, the only thing i can say is ffs !

RE: Bad debt

An On MRCVS — Thu, 17 May 2018 22:15:19 GMT

Thank you for all the responses, made me feel much better. Not sure why this one wound me up so much. Anyway , i have very politely written back , addressing some of their ( ridiculous) points and telling them that if not paid in full in 2 weeks then debt collectors (plus their fees) will take over the account. I think this got to me as it was so unexpected, although as time went on i had a bad feeling...... Thanks again for the responses.

RE: Bad debt

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 May 2018 17:12:51 GMT

RE: Bad debt

Rob Loxley — Thu, 17 May 2018 15:06:54 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"] Moral - get in there quickly, or accept the loss[/quote]

and do some searches: if they have a string of CCJs you'll just be at the back of the queue and any money/time invested will be to no avail...

RE: Bad debt

George Cooper — Thu, 17 May 2018 14:13:04 GMT

Slightly different tack here - making to Ms Butterworth. Since they are in your village (though how big is a village - ours is 7 properties!) and if you are up for it, why not go, two of you, and actually knock on their door. Smile on face, exuding empathy, and offer to talk it through. Then be assertive regarding the outcome you want, but always be mindful that SOMETHING is better than NOTHING (or if pursued to ends of the earth, will end up costing even more).

None of us likes pursuing these guys, and we also had an "instant invoice", then 2 weeks later "account with warning" then 2 weeks later direct to debt collector.

From the other side of the fence I can tell you that, for a year I had real issues and eventually closed the practice and went down the route of insolvency. During that time I tried negotiations with chiefly the bank and others, to no avail. Demands arrived from, say utilities regularly, the debt was "sold" to specialist collection agencies - but in that 12 months nothing actually was actioned. That taught me that to avoid paying, for some one that way inclined, they are shown that nothing ever happens, and so will continue to evade you. Moral - get in there quickly, or accept the loss. Once it becomes a point of principle then you can kiss it and more goodbye, even if it does enrage you.

"Gratitude lasts one week" - after which we're doomed, doomed I tell you.

RE: Bad debt

grumpyoldman — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:56:51 GMT

Sympathies : I find its better for everyone in the practice if you accept the % write off and walk away , its infuriating particularly when they start whinging and wriggling. Ours is now down to <2% but in the past it has approached 5%, you learn and get harder. We are quite happy to sack them and wave them on their merry way to v4p or CVS .

RE: Bad debt

Clive Ansell — Wed, 16 May 2018 15:11:51 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]I might take another view as they live in your village, hard as it might be, try to set aside your indignation and consider the effect of fighting someone on your doorstep and how you can easily bump into them dog walking, at the shop, church or whatever, your blood pressure will rise every time you might meet them and you (your business) might be the subject of village gossip. [/quote]

There is also a danger, if taking the more softly approach, that a message will be sent out that you are a soft touch and easy game for other unscrupulous chancers out there.

Also one has to ask, why are people giving out so much free credit ?? surely, payment at the time or ideally in advance has to be the way forward.

Best way to avoid a credit problem = don't give credit.

RE: Bad debt

Clive Ansell — Wed, 16 May 2018 15:07:29 GMT

I would pursue it to the end of the earth if necessary, even if I were out of pocket doing so.

The work has been done in good faith, and the money is owed, no doubt. Reading between the lines of the OP I would guess these clients are trying to pull a fast one, and it would be no surprise if they have done/are doing the same elsewhere. Give them a deadline, beyond which proceedings will be initiated to recover the debt.

RE: Bad debt

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 May 2018 14:54:03 GMT

Ignore the sob stories and excuses and social implications.

Send to debt collectors right now. Small Claims procedure calls to mind fireguards and chocolate.

Use an energetic debt collector that charges a percentage.

Go to legal action if debt collector advises it with a view to seizing assets. But beware the old-fashioned way of forking out fee for this, fee for that, fee for the other, just to take the legal action. There are other ways of doing it.

You may get very little or nothing at all in the end, but getting your money is not the sole object of the exercise.

Oh, and it's not impossible that they will continue to be your clients. Mark their card "strictly no credit" or even "cash in advance only" and make sure your staff understand that this means what it says.

RE: Bad debt

Niall Taylor — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:09:02 GMT

[quote user="janine redman"]I would suggest being sympathetic but advising that if x% isn’t paid by y date then their account will be referred to a debt collecting agent[/quote]

This is the way to go, use a debt collector, it takes all the hassle off your shoulders so you can get on doing work for people who apprecite you, not crooks and indolents like these! And go the full mile aswell - ccj's and everything, no need to make life easy for them, even if they don't pay.

I personally would bite the bullet on balance and take the offered £100 per month...[/quote]

I get the point, and it's probably my natural inclination to take these things personally but they would no more keep up the payments than fly in the air IMHO, just another delaying tactic. And I'd be going out of my way to 'bump into them' at every available opportunity! As for gossip, it's surprising once you start to speak to others locally to someone like this how many others have already realised exactly the sort of person these people are. If you don't do anything about it though, word spreads and you won't be able to move for sob stories!

Niall

RE: Bad debt

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 May 2018 11:40:52 GMT

there is almost no chance this type of client will keep up with the payment scheme. Don't know why but they never do!

Bite the bullet and go through debt collectors (having written to express your regret that you are having to take this action).

Either they have more money than you and they are taking the pi*s or they are in financial trouble (fur coat but no knickers syndrome). If the former, they will not want a CCJ. If the later they are not likely to pay anyway.

Depressing but the way the world has always been.

RE: Bad debt

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 16 May 2018 10:36:47 GMT

For that amount it would be court to get a CCJ against them then move it on to the high court enforcers with us. They work very well and havn't failed me yet. They have all sorts of legal powers to seize assets etc.

Oddly we have 2 clients who we've gone down this route and they have remained clients (who pay for everything at the time)!

RE: Bad debt

Jill Butterworth — Wed, 16 May 2018 09:18:46 GMT

I might take another view as they live in your village, hard as it might be, try to set aside your indignation and consider the effect of fighting someone on your doorstep and how you can easily bump into them dog walking, at the shop, church or whatever, your blood pressure will rise every time you might meet them and you (your business) might be the subject of village gossip.

I personally would bite the bullet on balance and take the offered £100 per month and sack them.

We have all been stung like this occasionally, and they clearly do have some sort of money problem, it's a shame they didn't bury the dogs in that beautiful garden.

We make clients pay for private cremation direct to the company to avoid these situations.

I console myself by considering the fixed and variable costs, and especially when I can foresee a 'situation':

Whilst annoying, if I had put the dogs to sleep (and they had buried them at home) the cost is time plus approx £5-10 of barbiturate and disposables,fuel.. (I can extrapolate that for example to a radiograph/scan, as the machine sits there, whether used or not).

However, the moment you pay hundreds of pounds on a client's behalf for the cremation, a mountain of drugs, etc this debt has tangibly affected your balance sheet.

I'm not implying time is worth nothing, but you are currently giving the problem a lot of your personal free time, and you can't get that back either ...

RE: Bad debt

Julie Innes — Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:15 GMT

I'm always amazed at the brass neck of this type of person! As someone who pays every invoice the second it comes in, I would be mortified! Private cremation isn't a necessity, so it really winds me up when people who have no funds (and no intention of paying!) ask for it. I have been burned by this before, so if I'm unsure we do ask for the cost up front, although it makes you feel horrible and hard as nails.

I now send an invoice , wait 2 weeks, send a statement, wait 2 weeks then send a letter saying pay within 7 days or you will be referred to debt collector (I don't actually usually bother!) and removed from our list. I've removed clients from my list for even small debts, as it is the principle of the thing!

RE: Bad debt

janine redman — Tue, 15 May 2018 22:50:47 GMT

I would suggest being sympathetic but advising that if x% isn’t paid by y date then their account will be referred to a debt collecting agent and then it will end up costing a lot more than if they pay up. We rarely chase small debts but will not send for individual cremation until debts cleared. Sometimes persistent gentle nagging wears them down . Sometimes leaving it to the profession debt collecting service means you can forget it and most people will pay rather than risk a CCJ.

We recently pursued a debtor. Someone who had been clearly and repeatedly informed of costs and signed consent form with costs clearly indicated. Then said would pay on Poc , didn’t and disappeared. Tracked down and agreed to mediation and I took a morning off work to talk things through. Didn’t turn up to mediation . Moved out of the area. Was tracked down again. Went to court but he failed to turn up. Court found against him and he tried sue the court and us for harassment . Finally after 2 years we sorted it and received some money . Not enough to cover the costs but enough to be satisfied that he didn’t get away with a deliberate attempt to avoid legitimate fees. Usually we just let things go and refuse further business.

RE: Bad debt

Rob Loxley — Tue, 15 May 2018 22:46:53 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]My question is do we i) send straight to debt collection[/quote]

I think you've given them every opportunity to pay, so I'd go for this.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Then had 2 pts / house visit individual crem etc. Total bill £1600 ish[/quote]

For future reference, I'd question allowing them to run up further debt on individual cremations etc while a previous large outstanding balance remains

RE: Bad debt

rhmrcvs — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:34:12 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Hello , I'd love some advice please , also a chance to rant a little. Long story short , high maintenance clients ( annoyingly live in same village as us ) 4 or 5 v expensive v large pedigree dogs. Had big investigation pre xmas , £1000 bill , on collection advised " need to move some investment money around" has done this before and paid in 4/6 wks. Then had 2 pts / house visit individual crem etc. Total bill £1600 ish. Has paid for boosters etc but none off main. No response from copy invoices , statements etc. Phone call saying will be in for ashes , thank you so much etc etc. No response to phone messages. Accountant sent final demand , client then calls pleads poverty wants to pay £100 per month so almost 2 yrs from when work done. Reluctantly agrees to £400 end apr ( says doesnt have credit card) , £300 by mid may , balance end may. No further funds received sent letter adv debt proceedings . Client responds denying agreeing to it, has mental illness , we are bullies ( you get the drift ). My question is do we i) send straight to debt collection , adding on their £200 fee , that we wont get if he just pays balance, ii) give til end of month then debt collection ( he inferred quicker to wait for him in next few weeks ) iii) small claims court online but risk of getting £1 per week ( even though have beautiful property etc etc ). What would you all do? We provide exceptional service with kindness and compassion i usually just deal with this but it has completely wound me up. Opinions v gratefully accepted.

[/quote]extremely frustrating. Always the way , ones that we've helped out come back to bite us. Nice to get the ccj against them as that makes life very difficult for them. I suspect you're unlikely to get the dosh. Send them a sacking letter and note " no further work" on records.

RE: Bad debt

An On MRCVS — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:09:54 GMT

Having had a similar conversation with debt collection the recovery fees ie the commission can be added to tge client account but must be added to the outstanding amount before recovery. Recovery fees cannot be added after so need to calculate their commission first , the collection company we use have no payment no fee to us. Seems so awful to increase fees for good clients to cover for the scumbags but makes sense.

RE: Bad debt

David Catlow — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:01:11 GMT

And / or review your debt collection service.... I’m sure there are some out there who take % of debt rather than up front

RE: Bad debt

David Catlow — Tue, 15 May 2018 19:58:48 GMT

Totally frustrating. I have every sympathy.

I‘m sure lots of similar stories will follow

My advice.... bad debts only serve to enhance your blood pressure so look at the bigger picture and realise you’ll lose 1% in year on bad debts, so put your prices up 1% and sadly, let everyone else pay for it!

accept his terms of £100/mo and sit it out... court can be additional frustration

have a response ready for when he wants more work.... no work unless full payment etc

£1000 is a lot of money... even more painful when it’s a farm client for £50k!

good luck