Retention problem CVS thread?

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

rhmrcvs — Fri, 11 May 2018 23:20:14 GMT

Our 5 year old had minor surgery under ga , my husband was with her in recovery , she woke up and started fiddling with the monitoring kit attached to her , nurse started to explain " its to measure oxygen in your blood " 5 yr old says " yes ,i know, its a pulse oximeter". They've come to work with us from a week old , not phased by anything and are helpful , mopping floors , cleaning kennels , all sorts.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Elisabeth Knappett — Fri, 11 May 2018 23:19:55 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

you do get some funnies happening when your small offspring live on the premises with you . most of its just mimicry. I remember one night at 2am after lambing a ewe in the car park ,I passed the kids bedroom to find Tom and Helen 3yrs and 4yrs respectively with a bottle of lube taken from the prep room greasing up Matthew's (15 months old) Bald head inside his cot and trying to prise him through the vertical bars. Needless to say shortly afterwards we moved into a house away from the practice.

[/quote]

I love this - my mum says that she could see me doing something similar if I'd had the chance!

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

grumpyoldman — Fri, 11 May 2018 22:28:39 GMT

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 09 May 2018 20:13:29 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]My father was akin to yourself Anthony. As a farmer he worked every hour available and loved the job. The casuality as you elude to was the family. We never had a family holiday and to be honest never bonded. He didn't even own the he farm. What benefits are your children now seeing? Financial?? Nothing can bring that time back and we didn't make that awful mistake.[/quote]

We always had a holiday every year, whole family, even to Australia more than once, drove them to school daily, Sundays, when I wasn't on call, long seat-kicking drives to the seaside etc.

Work and family are possible, and being around more of the time isn't necessarily a great thing [ask my wife now that I've retired....]

But the whole work/life/family dynamic has changed, but with it has emerged arguably less job satisfaction, less "family" satisfaction, more mental illness, more divorce so I wonder if "today" is better than "yesterday".

Is the success rise of the Corporates anything to do with this work/life/relationships balance among vets??

I worked for what was, in effect, the first of the corporates and virtually all my then colleagues went on to own their own practices or be in partnerships which, I think, is a major change from the employment progression of today.

Why??

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 May 2018 19:14:51 GMT

My children often came to work with me when no alternative was available...it was fine.

The problem, I think, is more with older/teenage children. They need more time with you in a different way...to discuss their life, their interests and their education..to keep that bond strong and for them to feel important and valued They also have more need of mums/dad's taxi.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Edward Jones — Wed, 09 May 2018 19:08:23 GMT

My (small) children come to work with me. It's great/awful

Countless times have I treated various teddies for vomiting or other ailments, or been asked about other (real) patients - "Daddy, will you put him in the freezer?"

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 09 May 2018 11:52:06 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

My father was akin to yourself Anthony. As a farmer he worked every hour available and loved the job. The casuality as you elude to was the family. We never had a family holiday and to be honest never bonded. He didn't even own the he farm. What benefits are your children now seeing? Financial?? Nothing can bring that time back and we didn't make that awful mistake.

Neil

[/quote]

Completely agree with Neil, my mother was a GP who worked ridiculous hours, we never had any family time together and to this day never formed any kind of relationship, and that has always bothered me. I was adamant I would not do the same to my son and have made an effort to work reasonable hours and keep time for family. I love being a vet but that doesn't mean it has to smother every other aspect of my life.

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]My impression is that the Universities are currently producing people who expect to be career employees or JVPs , I suspect that no ones prepared to wear old clothes and eat beans on toast for 2 years while driving a crap car and not going on holiday.[/quote]

The massive debts they are saddled with from University mean they are often already on a tight budget and are not keen to descend further into the red (or banks are less keen to assist them with purchasing a business). Add in the apparent increased focus in 'training' positions (internships/residencies/corporate training schemes) and associated lower incomes (and different endgames) and buying a practice becomes even less realistic.

Marie

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 09 May 2018 02:55:33 GMT

Neil

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 08 May 2018 20:10:56 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I dont know if you had a wife and/or kids when you were working, but, assuming yes, did you find it interfered with your family life? I know the divorce rate was always pretty high and many vets (and other professionals) struggled to spend enough time with their children.[/quote]

Um, yes, three sons, who never saw me during the week, and late on Saturday, but they seem to be reaping the benefits now.

It's the old, or rather the new, much changed work/life balance which is a personal choice I think everyone makes, but now it's blamed on "the job" and not on the choice made.

Ironically with all this "time with family" and "personal choices" yet, and I hope I'm right, the divorce rate and veterinary dissatisfaction rate is [but to be confirmed when Lizzie gives us the data] higher than ever.

I just want to find a way to make modvets as happy as I think many, if not most, dinovets were!!

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Richard Carter — Tue, 08 May 2018 17:26:04 GMT

actually all the medical professions have a very high level of depression and self harm - it comes from the sort of person we are to have taken to the challenge in the first place. Doesn't excuse the numbers I agree. You can also add in farmers into the category before we sink into a discussion of 'us poor vets' again.

What I was referring to was the 'industrialisation' of the profession with clinics running 10 minute consultations 7-7 or longer hours, both Saturday and Sunday consulting but with OOH provider but this is preferred job to a quieter job of less consulting, less hours but the moment you mention a job HAS to have OOH commitment (distance from a major centre in our case), no-one is interested.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 08 May 2018 16:03:15 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Then it was a vocation, hobby, career, job, passion almost a religion etc. etc.[/quote]

I dont know if you had a wife and/or kids when you were working, but, assuming yes, did you find it interfered with your family life? I know the divorce rate was always pretty high and many vets (and other professionals) struggled to spend enough time with their children.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 08 May 2018 15:56:48 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]I am quite upset at how we seem to have just sold out the vocation and fun for 'business' and a 'job'.[/quote]

Yup, me too and I've been here before. Happiest when I did more calls than my boss, devastated when I made a mistake, and all I read for the first 10 years in the UK was most of the vet journals which you could subscribe to from the College library.

Chuffed when I could get both legs out of a vulva with only two arms in, one for left, same for right, and the head with those orbit hooks and a nylon rope then flopped!

Then it was a vocation, hobby, career, job, passion almost a religion etc. etc.

I wouldn't change anything, but apparently it's all so different now!!

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 08 May 2018 11:25:56 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]There is a widening gulf between what the public expects from the veterinary profession (i.e. be available and caring and competent etc) and what members of the profession are prepared to deliver[/quote]

I'm confused by what you've said here. You say that the public expects us to be available, caring and competent....which all vets I know are still striving to provide. Thus there is no difference here in what the puplic wants, and what members of the profession are prepared to deliver. But the profession has to offer this...not necessarily individuals!

However, from your next sentence...

[quote user="Richard Carter"]I am quite upset at how we seem to have just sold out the vocation and fun for 'business' and a 'job'.[/quote]

...you seem to think that vets aren't still trying to provide those things. We are. The only difference is we want to achieve them as well as having time away from work, and 'being a vet'. Because it really is just your business and your job. A satisfying, highly valued and worthwhile one....but just a job.

It really isn't a 'failure' to want a life away from work, and to not be at the beck and call of your clients. Afterall, those same clients appreciate our skills, dedication and time but you are, afterall, just their vet. Nothing more. As it should be.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 08 May 2018 09:03:45 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]the social and economic changes that have developed in the last 15 years are far, far bigger than the veterinary profession are. The workforce issues are a symptom, and not a cause of the veterinary profession's work/life problems[/quote]

then we need a grown up discussion about how much OOH and continuity care we expect our profession to be able to provide and whether we think we have any obligation back to the client and patient or not when an emergency arises?

There is a widening gulf between what the public expects from the veterinary profession (i.e. be available and caring and competent etc) and what members of the profession are prepared to deliver so we need to have a revision of the rules and work out what we can realistically cover.

I am quite upset at how we seem to have just sold out the vocation and fun for 'business' and a 'job'.

Also quite interested to see the expectation is that the 'job' is to be supplied by someone else and the business side to be avoided. Anyone feeling like frogs in water being heated?

Think it was Roche (of pharmaceuticals) who said look after the product and the money looks after itself but sure many others have said it as well. Think we looking after the wrong end at the moment.

Anyone want to buy a profitable small practice?

[/quote]

I appreciate that you're upset about the vocation aspect - that said, 'vocation' was used as an all-encompassing excuse for bad working conditions, poor mental health, and being steamrolled by an all-demanding occupation. I'm not saying vet med is like all the other occupations, but I can see why a lot of people might say 'enough'.

After all, suicide, drug addiction, drink, and early death from illness is nothing new, it's just only now that the profession is willing to talk about it.

Part of that is going to be helping set the client and vet expectations earlier, although I freely admit that is a multi year project for the entire profession to act on in a joined up manner, and that joined up manner is what's going to take a while...

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Richard Carter — Sun, 06 May 2018 10:36:34 GMT

I am quite upset at how we seem to have just sold out the vocation and fun for 'business' and a 'job'.

Also quite interested to see the expectation is that the 'job' is to be supplied by someone else and the business side to be avoided. Anyone feeling like frogs in water being heated?

Think it was Roche (of pharmaceuticals) who said look after the product and the money looks after itself but sure many others have said it as well. Think we looking after the wrong end at the moment.

Anyone want to buy a profitable small practice?

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Richard Carter — Sun, 06 May 2018 10:13:17 GMT

but the jobs being advertised and that I and others are trying to fill (3-4 pages of adverts) are not 'beans on toast' and no holidays - 45k plus, 4 day week, holidays etc but the smaller towns have an OOH commitment that isn't going away even when going into a sharing rota with neighbouring practices.

The JVPs will be working as hard as any of the 'independents' to make it float.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 05 May 2018 17:46:34 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]my impression in trying to recruit is that the current generation prefer corporate life with the rules that define (and I suppose protect) to the small independent 'get on with it' approach[/quote]

My impression is that the Universities are currently producing people who expect to be career employees or JVPs , I suspect that no ones prepared to wear old clothes and eat beans on toast for 2 years while driving a crap car and not going on holiday.

[/quote]

Hard to blame them - there's no longer any such thing as a 'job for life' and if there's going to be no satisfaction or financial reward for those two years of excessive flatulence and no sleep, why on earth would anyone want to do it?

While self flagellation is certainly showy, it's ultimately counterproductive; people do things for financial or emotional reward, and if they are given neither, they'll go and find someplace that does.

(yes, i have done the beans on toast old clothes style life, and yes, i understand why it doesn't appeal! after 2 years without a break i was a vegetable.)

It's not the Universities' fault that these are the graduates coming through - the social and economic changes that have developed in the last 15 years are far, far bigger than the veterinary profession are. The workforce issues are a symptom, and not a cause of the veterinary profession's work/life problems.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 05 May 2018 16:43:34 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I suspect that no ones prepared to wear old clothes and eat beans on toast for 2 years while driving a crap car and not going on holiday. [/quote]

Lol...brilliantly put. But takes longer than 2 years to get a new start-up off the ground!

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 05 May 2018 16:18:32 GMT

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Richard Carter — Sat, 05 May 2018 09:38:50 GMT

my impression in trying to recruit is that the current generation prefer corporate life with the rules that define (and I suppose protect) to the small independent 'get on with it' approach

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 05 May 2018 08:16:49 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Does this variation in managers and the impact that this has on the employees not reflect on the company as a whole;[/quote]

Absolutely...but that is the same as with any big business.

[quote user="robloxley"]as a potential recruit it's harder to know what the particular line manager is like?[/quote]

Yes...but I can't see how that is different to an independent practice? You never really know what a boss is like before you work there, no?

[quote user="robloxley"]Are retention and recruitment issues the same?[/quote]

I suspect CVS suffer from the problem that if a person had a bad experience at one of their practices, they won't work for a different one. While this may be justified if the problem was with general protocols or head office, if it is due to poor local management a different practice may be fine.

And maybe some people won't work for corporates at all....I don't know.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 04 May 2018 19:35:25 GMT

If it's a CVS practice in the North then feel free to PM me.

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

An On MRCVS — Fri, 04 May 2018 17:27:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Think this might have been the thread you were looking for ...

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/6/t/26827.aspx

[/quote]

That's the one!

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Richard Carter — Fri, 04 May 2018 16:36:50 GMT

as opposed to ' these are not the droids you are looking for' May the fourth etc

RE: Retention problem CVS thread?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 04 May 2018 14:45:38 GMT

Think this might have been the thread you were looking for ...

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/6/t/26827.aspx