Illegally imported dogs

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 19:18:48 GMT

A bit of a result as they say Toby. My concern with this is what I could do under the same circumstances without isolation kennels or indeed even the practical ability to kennel it at all over a weekend and in any case surely it is not my responsibility to seize it. Given I couldn't contact trading standards or Defra at that time Friday night it would have to go home with the owner but I would need to register the circumstances with someone to watch my own back - would I call the police/RSPCA or what? And ultimately who is going to do something to chastise border control whose fault it is that the pup made it through in the first place assuming it wasn't smuggled?

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Toby Birch — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:09:08 GMT

Just an update on my little pup.....

I was off work on Monday and one of my colleagues got in touch with Trading Standards and was given the run around being passed from one agency to another all of whom were equally uninterested.

I then spoke to a very helpful person at DEFRA who said that absolutely it was Trading Standards job to enforce this breach. She then pointed me in the direction of the legislation so that I could gently use it to persuade Trading Standards . Even the DEFRA website says that it is Trading Standards responsibility.

By the time that the Trading Standards officer whom my colleague spoke to earlier had responded to my voicemail (to be fair very quickly) my poking was not required. He had realised that yes it was Trading Standard's responsibilty and even started telling me about another case from the end of last year.

From that point on the Trading Standards officer was very helpful and efficient and we exchanged a number of phonecalls during the day.

The upshot is that the pup was collected by the quarentine kennels and was taken there to be vaccinated and stay 3 weeks. Trading Standards/Council would pick up the bill and then persue the owner for this. The decision to euthanase could have been made but the kennels would not take on a dog if it was potentially going to be euthansed on purely financial reasons at a later date and Trading Standards wished to persue its investigations first. All was very efficient and the pup was collected mid-afternoon.

Trading Standards would then continue it investigations into how the pup entered the country etc etc. A form would also be completed for DEFRA so that hopefully at some point in time the vet who gave a passport as no more than a microchip certificate could be accountable (although I doubt anything will ever happen).

The Trading Standards officer was also interested in how difficult it had been for us to get in touch and promised that he would look into this and produce protocols which could be circulated. The voicemail of the number the council had put me through to on the Friday afternoon was apparently for someone who had left 2 years ago!

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:14:33 GMT

My dogs are vaccinated against rabies now. I have no intention of taking them abroad!

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Christina Smith — Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:34:25 GMT

I thought we'd already imported echinococcus mulilocularis along with a batch of beavers released into a secret location in the Scottish Highlands

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Mike Dale — Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:38:52 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

BUT your pet dog population is vaccinated against rabies, ours is not!

[/quote]

Bob, as I said, that would worry me too. Maybe the people in the UK should have their pets vaccinated against rabies now? (FWIW, over here more and more people skip the rabies vaccinations because we don't have rabies in the country any more and they can save some quids. We'll see how this turns out in the long run....)

That will go down well in the current economic pinch. Perhaps the Trust will vaccinate them all FOC? (Sorry - bit sanguine after a tortuous journey home from Birmingham!).

[/quote]

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Catherine Williams — Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:44:17 GMT

Scarily I think the scheme is fallin down in many areas. Had several clients tell me how they have to positively thrust the paperwork into someone's hands to get it checked, or others who aren't checked at all, except for 1 route used locally where the company charge £30 to check the paperwork and so do at least glimpse at it to earn their dosh.

Also had a lot of problems with the wormer and french vets - "what date do you want me to put on here?", "here's the tablet, you give it to him later & I'll sign the passport" and "he's travelled a bit recently & had a fewer wormer doses, I'll sign the passport & we'll just say he's had the tablet" are all responses reported to me by my clients. Now having to work quite hard on my clients to explain echinococcus and why the worming is important but really quite difficult when fighting the gallic shrug and the "what are they making a fuss for" attitude from across the Channel.

I fear that at some point we will have a proper scare & that the UK public has no idea what the arrival of rabies in a naive population would mean for our pets & our relationship with them. The prospect of rounding up in contact pets is very scary.

To be honest I thought PETS needed tightening up on not relaxing a year ago

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Sarah Keir — Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:34:41 GMT

No-one has mentioned Echinococcosis yet. Sounds nasty www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcosis

This quote is from https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQFjAH&url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.fao.org%2Fupload%2FAgrippa%2F666_en.doc&ei=Q6lAUfTDFIG0O7qIgZgL&usg=AFQjCNH-yDQ563fC7zRBeg5VQIqjf4FyXg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZWU

"Until the beginning of the eighties, the disease was fatal within 5 years in most cases; because of earlier diagnosis and better medical management (including surgery, continuous treatment with albendazole, and ultimately liver transplantation in some cases), the prognosis and quality of life has improved a lot in most of patients."

I am more worried about Echinococcosis than rabies (but I have had rabies shots).

Sarah

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Rob Loxley — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:50:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]They need to be penalised big time for not strictly enforcing the rules.[/quote]

IME Eurotunnel don't even understand what the rules are, let alone apply them

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:14:58 GMT

Have 5 stars from me Clive, I didn't even see the program as it's content was totally predictable and I would have probably given up the will to live. I then watched 'Mad Max beyond the Thunderdome' with my daughter and nearly did give up the will to live but Tina Turner saved the day.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Rob Davis — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:21:36 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]The other issue shown on this program is one we are having too. Imported puppies in very poor health from eastern Europe are flooding our market and are sold for peanuts over the internet - of course the following vet bills are usually very large and the outcome is sometimes very poor. We have been trying to stop this for years and years but as people keep buying them despite everything we tell them there is no end to the suffering of these poor puppies. However, we have been rabies free for some time now and this constant stream of cheap puppies has not introduced rabies to Germany again yet.[/quote]

While the risk of rabies is worrying, I agree that it is probably small, however the welfare of the puppies involved (and I suspect the breeding bitches) is a major concern. I have seen a handful of Eastern European puppies in the last few months, and most of them have been pretty poor specimens, generally bought because either they were cheaper than buying from British breeders, or the owners were duped into seeing them as something special because they had come from abroad. Given the lack of success in combatting puppy farms in the UK, I see little that can be done other than trying to educate owners against purchasing these puppies. Unfortunately we generally only get to see them after they have been bought. I didn't see the TV program, but perhaps it may help to publicise the issue.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:37:59 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]What happens at the border where a guy with 45 puppies drives in and can pass them as pets with passports. This is where security needs tightening. Coming from NZ where customs is ultra strict, the UK airports astound me that you're never checked on immigration other than that your passport matches your face. I don't imagine port borders where animals come in are much stricter. Is every vehicle checked? Logistically I assume that's not possible, but this the hole in the dam. Heck, there was even a story in the metro last week where a cat made it from Egypt to the UK in a suitcase and was only discovered by the owners halfway up the motorway!!!

[/quote]

The UK Border Agency are unfit for purpose, under resourced and are struggling to prevent illegal human immigration. I have had far too many dealings with the UKBA to have even the slightest confidence in their ability to enforce any of the rules.

Much of the day to day responsibility for enforcing the Pets Passport scheme has been devolved to the ferry/tunnel companies. They need to be penalised big time for not strictly enforcing the rules.

I cannot think for a second that 45 puppies will be individually checked and matched up with paperwork by the ferry company.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:26:02 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

The risk of rabies is very real, and is worrying.

just over a year ago a puppy made its way from Morocco, through Spain and finished up in the Netherlands with rabies.

[/quote]

I don't deny that, we've had one from Croatia a couple of years ago. With post-exponential vaccinations in place hopefully there will be no human deaths though, that's what I meant.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

James Laidlaw — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:21:32 GMT

What happens at the border where a guy with 45 puppies drives in and can pass them as pets with passports. This is where security needs tightening. Coming from NZ where customs is ultra strict, the UK airports astound me that you're never checked on immigration other than that your passport matches your face. I don't imagine port borders where animals come in are much stricter. Is every vehicle checked? Logistically I assume that's not possible, but this the hole in the dam. Heck, there was even a story in the metro last week where a cat made it from Egypt to the UK in a suitcase and was only discovered by the owners halfway up the motorway!!!

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Clive Ansell — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:15:21 GMT

The risk of rabies is very real, and is worrying.

just over a year ago a puppy made its way from Morocco, through Spain and finished up in the Netherlands with rabies.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:27:41 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

BUT your pet dog population is vaccinated against rabies, ours is not!

[/quote]

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:20:34 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

I've watched it too. I still think it's a long way from having the first infected puppy in to having a human death. We have been living with rabies in Germany for ages without any human deaths through bites. I honestly think the fear of rabies in the UK is a bit over the top (ducking head :-) ) (There was one incident in 2005 where three people died. They had received organs from a donor who had been previously infected with rabies in India.) I am though worried about how many pets that have been in contact and have not been vaccinated have to be put down/put in quarantine once the first case arrives. And I do hope for you it does not get in contact with a fox who will then rapidly spread the disease into wildlife.

The other issue shown on this program is one we are having too. Imported puppies in very poor health from eastern Europe are flooding our market and are sold for peanuts over the internet - of course the following vet bills are usually very large and the outcome is sometimes very poor. We have been trying to stop this for years and years but as people keep buying them despite everything we tell them there is no end to the suffering of these poor puppies. However, we have been rabies free for some time now and this constant stream of cheap puppies has not introduced rabies to Germany again yet.

[/quote]

BUT your pet dog population is vaccinated against rabies, ours is not!

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:15:26 GMT

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Rob Loxley — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:33:12 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]My cat even could have predicted it if he could speak english[/quote]

Is he one of those lithuanian cats, coming here, eating our british mice...

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Clive Ansell — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:30:07 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I have just seen the despatches programme on TV this evening

Oh my God. The Chief Veterinary Officer, Nigel Gibbens, was directly asked if he predicted the surge in puppy imports and he replied simply that it was not predicted.

How could he not have forseen this? Why is he surprised? My sister who isn't even a vet predicted it. My grandma predicted it. My cat even could have predicted it if he could speak english.

Is anyone else worried that the country's most senior vet is obviously so devoid of any shred of common sense? When our first vet (or even worse a child) dies a horrible death from rabies will he even give a ****?

And the only reason I'm posting this as anon MRCVS is because the RCVS would of course be very much more concerned with making sure none of it's members step out of line than they are with keeping our country's biosecurity. I'm quite sure they'll think disciplining me far more important than the life of a child

[/quote]

It is not only predictable, it is inevitable. If there is a means for traders and back street breeder types to make a fast buck they of course will do so. Plus, there will always be a market as long as the general public are stupid enough to part with large sums of money to buy a designer genetic mutation disaster pedigree puppy.

What can we on the front line do? sweet f*** all really. We have no powers to confiscate or confine suspect puppies. We could report to the relevant authorities, or the police where the law has been broken. We could educate people not to buy them.

no need for anon post, you have expressed a perfectly valid opinion without being defamatory or derogatory.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

An On MRCVS — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:49:53 GMT

I have just seen the despatches programme on TV this evening

Oh my God. The Chief Veterinary Officer, Nigel Gibbens, was directly asked if he predicted the surge in puppy imports and he replied simply that it was not predicted.

How could he not have forseen this? Why is he surprised? My sister who isn't even a vet predicted it. My grandma predicted it. My cat even could have predicted it if he could speak english.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Stephen Courtney — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:41:36 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Rabies vaccination hurts[/quote]

great I can't wait.

[/quote]

Does not hurt more than any other vaccine! I've had loads, some left my arm sore, others didn't. Worst one i ever had was when the needle had a bur on the end and the nurse had to push it in with real force. I think most of that vaccine dribbled out the subsequent hole....

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Christopher Saul — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:58:58 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Rabies vaccination hurts[/quote]

great I can't wait.

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Bob Russell — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:01:25 GMT

How Nigel Gibbens can claim the change of rules does not increase the risk of rabies entering the UK amazes me. We have had several 'dubious' puppies from Eastern Europe. Paperwork seems in order but the age of puppy looks wrong.

My suspicion is that misrepresenting age is widespread! Is this the tip of an iceberg?

I accept the risk is small but unlike most European countries we do not have a large reserve of vaccinated pets.

I am sure it is only a matter of time before a rabies case is reported, hopefully the vet involved is on the ball when the ill pet is first presented!

Re: Illegally imported dogs

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:34:37 GMT

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2291385/Undercover-investigation-finds-drastic-surge-puppy-smuggling-relaxation-quarantine-rules.html

Re: Illegally imported dogs

james herriot lied — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:18:08 GMT

Christopher

I had a couple of issues along the same lines as you, but once I mentioned that I'd be visiting a NGO animal rescue outfit whilst abroad, there was no problem at all. The nurse, up to that point, was well informed about immunoglobulin post-bite etc, and did seem to know what she was on about (more so than me, anyway - really must look some of this stuff up).

This was last Friday, so recent news! The other thing worth noting is that the booster periods have been pushed right back - despite having had the original course fifteen years ago, I just needed a single booster.

Rabies vaccination hurts.