Politics

RE: Politics

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 01 May 2018 17:48:36 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

A US-style 'green-card' system would have sorted this in one fell swoop.

[/quote]

This is dangerous Niall.

The plan for EU nationals like me is something similar. You might end up in a system where people who have lived here for decades have different rights and can't vote, ie they become scapegoats at every turn. Parliament can then change your status and rights based on a majority vote and there's nothing you can do.

RE: Politics

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 May 2018 17:03:22 GMT

But back in the day nobody saw this as a problem. Many of the people that came over on the Windrush were (I believe) British Overseas Citizens and classified as British subjects. They had all the rights as any other British Subject.

When the law changed their rights were restricted. It is at this point they should have been contacted but nobody bothered because they did not see immigration as a problem.

When my wife got her first visit visa rejected the man from the embassy was very helpful and told us what to do differently next time! Since then the approach has changed to an almost combative manner.

RE: Politics

Niall Taylor — Tue, 01 May 2018 16:51:15 GMT

[quote user="Adebowale Ajao DVM, PGCertSAM, MRCVS"]Regarding Windrush, I think it is a general failure on the part of successive governments and as such we cannot put the blame on Theresa May's government alone.[/quote]

Exactly, seeing politicians scoring political points out of this is sickening.

[quote user="Adebowale Ajao DVM, PGCertSAM, MRCVS"]The people involved should have been contacted formally by the home office many years ago to formalise their stay in the UK[/quote]

A US-style 'green-card' system would have sorted this in one fell swoop.

Niall

RE: Politics

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 May 2018 16:44:31 GMT

The problems arise when you are doing things correctly but they either don't think you are or staff make a mistake.

in this situation you have almost nowhere to go. Even a complaint via an MP will often get a stock answer (albeit a longer one than the normal brush off).

The real question to ask is why your mother was accused of living in the UK in the first place. All too often the assumption is that the person is lying. Unless Border force Officers have good reason for suspicion then this is completely wrong.

The Windrush farce does result from a history of mismanagement. What it has done is bring to public attention the lousy level of decision making and staff at the Home Office.

I am very familiar with immigration and visa issues but it is a real shame that I have needed to learn anything other than how to fill in a form!

RE: Politics

Cool — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:54:58 GMT

Hmmm, I have had to deal with immigration many times. Obviously being an immigrant myself, I have not had much problem with the home office if you stick to their rules. However for whatever reason if you are not compliant with the rules then the home office has no capacity to use what we call common sense to resolve the case. They do have a few senior staff that are experienced at the border posts and you will be lucky to encounter them if you have a problem. My mum who was visiting the UK was almost deported back home on our way back from Germany. Why? she was accused of living in the UK. She had a visa to visit germany of course. A senior officer bailed us out in the end and she was not deported.

Regarding Windrush, I think it is a general failure on the part of successive governments and as such we cannot put the blame on Theresa May's government alone. The people involved should have been contacted formally by the home office many years ago to formalise their stay in the UK but nobody did. the box ticking method of management in the home office is what declared them as illegal citizens. I am sure many of the staff at the home office were not even born when the windrush folks came into the country.

While I understand that ministers have to be responsible for their actions, I really do not see what the country stands to gain in Amber Rudd's resignation or even Theresa if opposition continues to push it. Many governments are to blame for the Windrush scandal in my opinion

RE: Politics

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:41:08 GMT

The trouble with immigration issues is that peoples lives are potentially on hold. The price for them being wrong can be deportation after a spell in a Border Agency hell hole.

Failure to allow a rich Swiss family to visit the UK is Harrods have lost a few thousand (my wife is prevented from spending there!), I have missed out on some meals in places I could not afford but I have saved on socialising costs.

The real cost is the family were so pi++ed off that they refuse to visit the UK in future and will not consider investing their money here. They own car parks!!!

A junior civil servant has lost the UK thousands (or more) but at least has a refusal to add to his CV!

The stupidity of the action with regard to the Windrush generation beggars belief until you have had to deal with the Home Office. Then it becomes par for the course.

RE: Politics

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:10:08 GMT

Here's a DEFRA example, one that broke the back on this particular camel

If you had a TB outbreak, a vet would investigate it. It was seen as a chore, and a box ticking exercise, but for me it was an opportunity to help the farmer and save a lot of tax payers money.

On a large herd the cattle would be at multiple locations. In some cases the TB outbreak was confined to a bunch of heifers grazed up to 20 miles from the main herd. No contact for a year so it was a simple thing to restrict that group and test them rather than all the others. It saved time, effort and at £2/cow for a 800 cow herd where you could exclude 700, I easily paid for myself.

Due to a single outbreak in Scotland (TB free) that it was thought may have come from a non isolated/tested group the practice was stopped, but then again the culture within AHVLA was very much not to do this anyway (isolate and reduce testing) These days every animal under a single holding must be tested regardless of epidaemeology. There is zero discretion now, because that if far easier for inexperienced staff, but as Bob says upper management should be overseeing this and making better decisions.

Neil

RE: Politics

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:00:47 GMT

I have had dealings with the Home office over a number of years, mostly totally unsatisfactory!

My wife and daughter were refused entry at Heathrow and it took my bloody mindedness and the lack of a suitable flight to get them released. It then took my MP a couple of days before the grovelling started! Visas were totally in order.

The real crime at the Home Office is that junior civil servants and temporary staff are expected to make decisions they do not have the time nor the experience to deal with. They complete a tick box exercise and this leads to 'the computer says no!'. There is little scope for anyone more senior to intervene nor has there been leeway to use common sense or discretion.

My wife's best friend was refused an EU family permit when she was entitled to one as a Swiss resident married to a Swiss national. I took the complaint as high as it could go but ended with 'we cannot discuss this with you'! She was also refused a visitor visa on the grounds that she might need to work in the UK to pay for the visit. she would have stayed with us and her husband is a multi-millionaire anyway!

I accept the Home Office has been a basket case for decades and Ms May did a lot to paper over the cracks. She is the one responsible for the recent mess and arguably Amber Rudd was a good, moderate choice for the post.

Ms May removed most rights to appeal because the Home office was getting too much wrong and losing too many appeals.

Staff members have almost no discretion, it has been designed that way. Cheap wages for a cheap job. Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

Many visa applications are being moved to the UK or other key regional bases such as India. The experienced staff that are being lost for some reason seem to find Croydon less attractive than Bangkok or Mumbai!!!

There is little over-management, more like under-management as there are too few senior staff. I would have thought that the destroyed boarding cards would have been a real treasure for historians once the appropriate time had passed.

I have loathed Ms May following her influence at the Home Office so perhaps PM is the right job for her!

Rant over, climbing down from my soap box!!

RE: Politics

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:00:40 GMT

The fundamental issue is DISCRETION, and in my opinion it's a major problem

This was highlighted by the now retired leader of the immigration service

In past years if a person was seen to have lived in the UK for 50 years then the case officer could simply acknowledge that and move on.

What has happened in immigration and I found this in DEFRA is that a series of chapters are in place. They are there so that any temporary member of staff or new person can drop into the job and you get a consistent approach. The problem with this is that NO judgements are allowed, in effect the case workers become robots, simply churning out what is written. The only people that can change this are upper management.

So we now in a position and it looks like the Home Office is the same where if they don't fit within the written criteria then they are illegals.

More widely what it also does is demotivate anyone on the front line simple because they may as well leave their brain at home because they are not allowed to think around the problem and offer a sensible solution.

Guidance is fine, but the climate of over management has now been shown to be a disaster

Neil

RE: Politics

Linda Filshie — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:26:21 GMT

There was a heck of a lot of leaking going on to the Guardian - will be from an MP or a SpAd as if it was suspected to be from a Civil Servant heads would roll.

Basically one of her colleagues wanted her gone and pushed and dripped stuff to the media until her position was untenable. She didn't give the impression of being 100% on top of her brief but there have been worse Home Secs.

RE: Politics

Iain Richards — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:01:01 GMT

She blamed the civil servant and Sir Humphrey arranged for a leak. He'd have also ensure that there was a memo - usually toward the middle of the next to bottom box, exonerating the civil service. "clarification doesn't mean being clear, but ensuring one is in the clear"

RE: Politics

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:48:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]But why did she? [/quote]

I don't think she's dishonest

[/quote]

I don't think she's either. I think she actually made a mistake in forgetting that the letter published by the guardian was going to hunt her.

But I still don't get how they can now say 'we weren't introducing targets'.

RE: Politics

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:45:49 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]But why did she? [/quote]

I don't think she's dishonest and I don't think she's stupid enough to think she could mislead parliament if she knew of the existence of the targets. So I can only think she wasn't aware, which then raises the question of whether she should have been. Home Office is a huge job and she quite reasonably has to delegate a lot, but this seems such a fundamental part of the job, it's hard to defend 'not knowing'.