Towards a friendlier forum ...

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 03 May 2018 08:15:35 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]I’d like to pick up on Sarah Keir’s point, which I cannot recall having been raised in challenge before, and that is for members to use genuine names - their OWN names! Should any contributor worry about the consequences of a post they need to make, the ANON systhem will accommodate their need for secrecy.

Is this something, Arlo, that you might consider?[/quote]

Maybe at some point in the future, but certainly not yet. First reason is that I know of at least one person who started using their alias because they'd had their fingers burned in here, with what they felt was an overly, um, harsh reply to at least one question. So in any event, I would never make that a rule until such time as we had an established track record of reliably collegiate replies .. ie won that person's (and others') trust back.

The other thing is that the problem hasn't actually been people using aliases to post what I will call inappropriate stuff - it's mostly (all?) come from people using their real names! So demanding real names doesn't solve that problem.

What I'd rather do is make sure that the environment and features offered on the site are such that everyone WANTS to display their real names. For example, if people like and use the new VetSurgeon Connect service, they'll see that it is only going to work properly if they use their real names (will be a bit daft specifying, for example, that you are interested in collaborating on working towards a qualification, or research, or something, but only giving 'redhotchillipepper', or something, as your name!

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

George Cooper — Thu, 03 May 2018 01:25:04 GMT

I’d like to pick up on Sarah Keir’s point, which I cannot recall having been raised in challenge before, and that is for members to use genuine names - their OWN names! Should any contributor worry about the consequences of a post they need to make, the ANON systhem will accommodate their need for secrecy.

Is this something, Arlo, that you might consider?

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Liz Barton — Wed, 02 May 2018 15:26:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Er, um, I'm not sure expanding the reach or scope of vetsurgeon.org is either necessary or a good thing in that the main purpose, which I believe is to make you [I'm beyond improvement or reason] better vets in any way and every way, may be diverted or diluted.[/quote]

Ah, but that depends on what you consider makes you a better vet? If you account for the fact we're also human, then helping the human side should also have the knock on effect of making you a 'better vet'. Whether that is mutual support working towards common goals, sharing common interests, or simply that a problem shared is a problem halved, we cannot avoid the inextricable link between who we are and what we do.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Anthony Todd — Wed, 02 May 2018 15:09:49 GMT

Er, um, I'm not sure expanding the reach or scope of vetsurgeon.org is either necessary or a good thing in that the main purpose, which I believe is to make you [I'm beyond improvement or reason] better vets in any way and every way, may be diverted or diluted.

Could it be done by a separate forum or thread eg "www.vetoff.org or www.vetidle.org??

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 02 May 2018 08:05:14 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I am enjoying the atmosphere on here , good discussions , no pussyfooting around but courteous.[/quote]

Well, I don't want to start counting any chickens because it's still very early, and forum etiquette is something that has to be maintained - not just improve for a few days when I throw all my toys out of the pram!

But I too think things seem to be improving, and it sets the scene for the new features that we're putting a monumental amount of work (and ££££) into at the moment.

We've just done the latest site deployment. Only the most beady-eyed will notice any differences. One is that in your profile (My Account > Edit my profile), you now have the ability to display other groups / associations / organisations of which you are a member. Please do ... and when I've finished tinkering about under the hood, that info will be used to connect you with other members in your area who are also members of the same group.

I've also added to the list of things you can specify under interests. Same purpose - to connect those of you with shared interests, so do please go and see if there are any more you would like to add.

Shared goals (things you're specifically interested in collaborating with others on) will follow shortly.

Please DO NOT yet change anything under your 'Account Settings'. Some big changes there, primarily to do with your address details and also to provide absolute (I hope) clarity about how your data is used (as per GDPR). But there is a known bug which we need to iron out; should be ready later today. Meantime, if you try to update account settings, you could come unstuck, so please DON'T!

Once that's done, finally we can get started on new forum 'reactions'.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 01 May 2018 20:57:40 GMT

Just to say Arlo , that I am enjoying the atmosphere on here , good discussions , no pussyfooting around but courteous. Thank you

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Sarah Keir — Tue, 01 May 2018 20:43:20 GMT

Sorry to come late to the party but here is my tuppence...

Micheal, I have met you in person and you have not got terrible social skills!

I think we all need to acknowledge that we communicate in different ways depending on our upbringing, social standing, education etc. For example, I am Scottish and I have been called forthright and abrupt on occasion. I see the same in Micheal, and others, on this forum. Social skills and communication styles can be learnt (it is called mumbojumbo 'Emotional Intelligence') but it does take effort and thought from those of us not immediately top of the class in this regard.

I strive to improve myself in this regard but please let anyone know if bluntness has slipped into rudeness. This is the only way they can learn to rein in their tendencies to the benefit of all, if they would only see it themselves.

I think it should also be a forum rule that no-one should hide behind a fake or made up name, and ideally a photo to put to that name (even if 8 years our of date - guilty as charged).

Sarah

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Julie Innes — Tue, 01 May 2018 17:46:30 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

(With regards to "teaching" empirical treatment/diagnosis, I think lots of EMS in "normal" practices is key here, or was for me. I saw the "gold standard" approach at vet school, but was aware that in practice there were often limitations to this and that you could still get a satisfactory outcome)

[/quote]

I wonder if some students on EMS watch vets in practice and think, 'that's not how my lecturers say it should be done, when I qualify I'm going to do it properly'

[/quote]

They probably do! I think I was a little the opposite, though- I started seeing practice at 14 and really looked up to the vets I saw practice with, so when I was at uni I was often privately thinking "yeah right, that wouldn't be the way this would work in practice!"

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

vs0u — Tue, 01 May 2018 12:58:48 GMT

Michael's posts have always seemed completely fine and polite to me.

Maybe there could be an auto-delete of any posts containing 'old fruit', 'my dear' or other inappropriate terminology?

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Rob Davis — Tue, 01 May 2018 12:28:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]People with good social skills[/quote]

I have terrible social skills.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]If your wife bought a new dress and asked you for your opinion...how would you phrase your reply if you didn't like it? [/quote]

Bluntly. I'd tell her it looked awful and suggest returning it. We've been together 17 years, she knew what she was getting into.

In real life people appreciate me for my honesty and not sugar coating. It's not an internet persona.

[/quote]

Michael, I don't think that bluntness and kindness are mutually exclusive. You have been a valuable contributor over the years, largely because you say what you think and don't tend to be swayed by others. You have also shown kindness on a few occasions by offering further advice to me in private messages which you did not want to put on the forums. You didn't need to do that, it was a kind and much appreciated gesture.

I do not recall thinking any of your posts were offensive or insulting. I think you have generally disagreed in a perfectly acceptable way. I do not recall you resorting to the sarcasm occasionally employed on these forums which adds nothing to the discussion. I would be surprised if Arlo felt the need to suspend you unless your behaviour were to change in some way.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Kate Richardson — Tue, 01 May 2018 10:45:56 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I wonder if some students on EMS watch vets in practice and think, 'that's not how my lecturers say it should be done, when I qualify I'm going to do it properly'[/quote]

I know I did when I were a nipper. Even back in the Jurassic period there was a lot of tut tutting from the vet schools about some of the things mere practitioners did, and it inevitably made an impression on the students.

One lives and learns however. It is not always easy to come to terms with an imperfect world but it is something that is essential if one is to retain one's sanity!

Niall

[/quote]

Me too! Now I tut tut when loads of unnecessary tests are done but no treatment given!

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Niall Taylor — Tue, 01 May 2018 09:57:48 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I wonder if some students on EMS watch vets in practice and think, 'that's not how my lecturers say it should be done, when I qualify I'm going to do it properly'[/quote]

One lives and learns however. It is not always easy to come to terms with an imperfect world but it is something that is essential if one is to retain one's sanity!

Niall

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 01 May 2018 09:20:29 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

Anthony, the way I read this Thomas was not disagreeing with you! He seems to be saying that treating empirically is not wrong, but it might not come naturally to new graduates who have been taught to work up a case fully, and they might then become disillusioned. (am I right, Thomas?!)

[/quote]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant!

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

[/quote]

I wonder if some students on EMS watch vets in practice and think, 'that's not how my lecturers say it should be done, when I qualify I'm going to do it properly'

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Julie Innes — Tue, 01 May 2018 08:59:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Sorry again, in this time of apparent professional disenchantment this may be quite important so can you amplify what you said 'cos I still don't get it.

I didn't think anyone was now taught empirical treatment or diagnosis anymore??

[/quote]

Kind of helps to show how written conversation can be misconstrued.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 May 2018 01:35:50 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Not my understanding[/quote] etc.

Thanks, I didn't realise that. I only hope that I, when seeing the animal would have had the wit to recognise that is wasn't a liquid burn and pursue a diagnosis further....

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Bibs — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:04:07 GMT

One thing is for sure, this forum definitely isn't an echo chamber for my own opinions. It's been a kind of education into the existence of some personalities I don't normally spend time around in real life.

I think the decision on whether to cull the rude users depends on what type of forum you want to cultivate. A bit like pruning a bush or managing a forest or something. That's for the forum creator to decide. If you want to bring in more young inexperienced users and encourage them to participate then you will probably have to cut back the users who are going to discourage them.

...having said all of that I was reading back over a post I made over a year ago about a case that went wrong. I got a lot of reassurance and helpful advice from some long term forum members who may be considered a bit blunt at other times.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Rob Loxley — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:38:13 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I didn't think anyone was now taught empirical treatment or diagnosis anymore??[/quote]

Not my understanding: vet schools place their students in 1st opinion settings, some of which are 'charity' clinics, where sensible empiric treatment is needed; and students spend extensive time seeing practice where again such methods are used. The difficulty is sometimes knowing which cases show 'red flags' for further investigation at onset.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Anthony Todd — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:44:07 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]It means exactly what I wrote.[/quote]

Sorry again, in this time of apparent professional disenchantment this may be quite important so can you amplify what you said 'cos I still don't get it.

I didn't think anyone was now taught empirical treatment or diagnosis anymore??

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:09:09 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I think the point isn't that treating empirically is wrong, but that if you have never realised or been taught that that is often the best way to manage an unwell animal it can be very difficult to change your way of thinking and your expectations, and if you can't then you will be disillusioned and leave the profession.[/quote]

Sorry again, but haven't you put in a "never" which shouldn't be there??

[/quote]

It means exactly what I wrote. The 'you' wasn't personally referring to you, it refers to a hypothetical young vet who hasn't been taught to manage cases empirically.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Anthony Todd — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:36:20 GMT

Sorry again, but haven't you put in a "never" which shouldn't be there??

It reads better, and makes sense to me if it reads:

I think the point isn't that treating empirically is wrong, but that if you have realised or been taught that that is often the best way to manage an unwell animal it can be very difficult to change your way of thinking and your expectations, and if you can't then you will be disillusioned and leave the profession.

I can't "never" realise and then be taught??

I think you mean that if I managed unwell animals by treating them empirically without resorting to diagnosis that it can be difficult to change my mindset and I could become disillusioned and leave the profession.

Trouble is my mindset is to get animals better and if that can be done just by a "diagnosis of experience", then ancillary tests are not necessary.

This is such a case, confirmed by a failure of all possible treatment.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:08:23 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]a sort of vetsurgeon.org fight club and we all know the rules...[/quote]

Funnily enough, that idea has cropped up a couple of times over the last few days!

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Gareth C. — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:00:18 GMT

having read some of the comments maybe another option would be to create a sub-forum where regular users can be a bit more up front with each other and keep the "banter" off the public front of house forum. a sort of vetsurgeon.org fight club and we all know the rules...

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Anthony Todd — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:17 GMT

Well I'm still here in spirit, if not in practice.

You seem to make my case, particularly as I am still here, am not disillusioned [and haven't left the forum.

The logic of my way of thinking, in this particular case supports me.

The few avenues of treatment, in this particular case, will not be influenced in any way by a CT scan because they are few and would, or should, have been already tried. [and, I assume, were unsuccessful]

As I have laboured before, only in a lowish number of cases, and this is another one, will a CT scan for a serious CNS condition change the prognosis, as any improvement would have been obvious after any of the few treatment options.

It would have better enhanced my logical reasoning if I had more details of the case.

A diagnosis often doesn't, if ever, change the possible treatment or outcome, particularly in gross CNS signs and obviously after all possible treatment failures.

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:57:31 GMT

Coming back to the OP, and the things that really stand out for me are ...

a) 42 likes and counting, and the overwhelming majority of the posts seem to be supportive of the idea of 'towards a friendlier forum'. I'm so pleased that it's evidently the general consensus.

b) A small, but important minority seem to disagree on the basis that harsh words are sometimes necessary, or because they are blunt by nature; that's how they express themselves.

In my experience, Jill Butterworth hits the nail squarely on the head:

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]Being blunt usually equates to a degree of rudeness which can be tolerated in real life if accompanied by a friendly twinkle in the eye which is difficult to translate onto the electronic page. [/quote]

The written word magnifies bluntness. For me it is a luxury which can only be afforded in communications between two people who know each other well. It's not difficult to add a few words to a sentence to make it seem less blunt.

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]We are all trying to communicate ideas, a thought from my head to yours. If the method of delivery fails, what's the point?[/quote]

SO true, and I write as someone who has been on the receiving end from time to time! Do I remember what was said; the idea? No. I don't mind admitting that all I remember is feeling hurt.

The same principle applies to 'harsh words are necessary'. The written word magnifies the effect of harsh words¹⁰, and another¹⁰⁰ when in front of an audience of peers. So in any situation, harsh words need to be toned down for the Internet in order to have the same effect as they would have face-to-face.

Anyway, 'nuff of the proselytising. I think we're making progress!

Looking at the growth in Facebook groups, my thoughts about the general direction we need to head in are:

There's been a huge growth in Facebook groups. Clearly it offers a good platform for spontaneous chat. But really, it's rubbish for case/clinical discussions. Hard to follow a thread over there. Very hard to find info. Very hard to assess the credibility of the poster (unless they are a 'friend' and you can see their profile).

So that, I think, is where I/we need to focus our efforts: providing the very best platform and community for clinical/case discussions, both in terms of the breadth of input and the quality of replies.

First we need to make sure we are all on board, or 'on-boarded' () with the idea of discussing cases in a reliably collegiate, respectful, welcoming, friendly way. That's the foundation. I think we're moving in the right direction now.

At the same time, I am now working on some big technical improvements to enhance vetsurgeon for case/clinical discussions.

Once these things are done it's a question of getting the word out there. Particularly to anyone who has walked away from here licking their wounds in the past!

We've got a deployment of one of the new features this afternoon, so the site will go down at some stage. There's more coming after that, which I hope will take no more than a few weeks - but I'll know more this afternoon.

All in all, I'm very excited about the prospects ...

RE: Towards a friendlier forum ...

Liz Barton — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:00:15 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"] I think it was 80% treated for what you think it is and arrange a follow-up consultation to reassess. I've read something similar from Steven May. Are we not teaching this to our students? If not, why not? It also ties in with the telemedicine thread about reducing costs to clients/increasing accessibility. [/quote]

I think this is the way vet practice functions - quite correctly - most of the time. But I don't think we prepare students well for it, because they are mostly taught in a linear fashion within a referral setting. I would love to hear I'm out of date on this, but recent chats with vet students suggests not a lot has changed since 'my day'!

There are talk of final year apprenticeships in 1st opinion practice... how great would that be?!