The development of professional veterinary identity

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

David Catlow — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:06:55 GMT

[quote user="Tim Browning"]

I don't think the Universities provide an overview and intellectual framework of the what we do, or they didn't when I was there a generation ago and in some ways it seems worse now as course more intense and financially stressful.

I feel the Universities have largely shirked their responsibilities to discuss reality with students and prospective students especially, in the mad rush to expansion over the last few decades.

[/quote]

To be fair, whilst I’m sure that there’s always room for improvement, I think all the universities have spent considerable time and resource putting animal welfare higher on the agenda In the last decade. Always difficult making change when so much is in the curriculum already and clinicians can have very disparate views, especially when animal welfare teaching and training has much less emphasis in days gone by

AWF funded the first animal welfare lectureships at Glasgow, Liverpool and Bristol in 2009 and those first positions have now evolved into permanent Chairs at all vet schools I think. Some great strides forward have been made

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

George Cooper — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 13:26:59 GMT

[quote user="David Catlow"]

The profession still needs to take a much stronger lead in the 'just because we can, should we' debate and decisions. Length of Life vs Quality of life

[/quote]

You got my vote, David......(er - ARE you standing?? {LOL})

No - in all seriousness I think this, and possibly this alone, underpins so much that is at the moment wrong. Almost every bone of contention of veterinary practice life has a link into this concept.

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

Tim Browning — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:51:09 GMT

I agree wholeheartedly with the thesis (though of course haven't read the whole thing yet, so may not!).

I think the whole area of animal welfare and the way the profession deals with it is responsible for a lot of the angst that underlines some of the unease apparent in the debate about vet attrition and job satisfaction.

It is not often discussed and focus instead placed on hours and conditions of work, leadership and support. Obviously these are vital areas, but if a consideration of the psychological health of the relationship between humanity and animals is not developed before hitting the ground running at graduation it may well be a bit of a shock for those who start thinking for themselves.

However the discussion generally around welfare via BVA and others is far more advanced than a generation ago. The Vet Record for instance used not to publish anything controversial about animal welfare or vet welfare and suicide rates etc were buried in a conspiracy of silence. The VR is a much more open publication today, reflecting society.

Teaching was very reductionist with lecturers focusing on their own little obsessions. The poultry guy would hardly be a strong advocate of non intensive systems and if welfare issues were discussed in say pigs then the lecturer would avoid judgmental statements by hiding conveniently behind the scientific mask of objectivity. Treatment of individuals was regarded as the true focus of welfare and any messy consideration of how mankind had caused the need for treatments by poor breeding or management techniques, was avoided. As it is in all TV programs today, unless no vets, like Catherine Tate involved!

There was an elephant in every lecture theatre and vets were trained to ignore it and sit at the front taking copious notes from the experts.

In one generation we have moved from a 'robust' large animal herd health approach delivered via a patriarchy to a small animal fur babies service culture (via not quite a patriarchy!) without pausing for breath or thinking about a moral framework to ground the profession in the difficult discussion of animal needs versus human needs .

I feel the Universities have largely shirked their responsibilities to discuss reality with students and prospective students especially, in the mad rush to expansion over the last few decades.

I really must read the thesis and check to see if I do agree, but in the words of Sandy Denny who knows where the time goes?

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

David Catlow — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:19:05 GMT

I agree that the profession has largely been focussed on health as the key measure of good animal welfare but I sense that the mood is gradually shifting. Whilst the other key elements that contribute to good welfare are more subjective in their measurement, recognition of Quality of Life does seem to be gaining more traction.

The profession still needs to take a much stronger lead in the 'just because we can, should we' debate and decisions. Length of Life vs Quality of life

There is quite a disparity between how the veterinary profession see themselves in leading the debate on animal welfare and where many in society see vets.

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

Richard Carter — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:06:21 GMT

actually can't say I agree with some of the conclusions about the stress being caused by disparity of expectations and animal welfare. I do agree that vets get 'moulded' in their college years and I remember being taught things as gospel and never questioned which in retrospect were not just off piste but downright dangerous as subsequent events showed like feeding carcass meal to herbivores, debeaking is 'kind', sows like being tethered to a crate and cows eat cement mixed into silage to counter the acidosis.

So progress comes in all shapes and sizes and no doubt the present crop are being taught things as gospel that will join the history books alongside bloodletting and leaches. Vaccinations probably.

On the education side I would say that most if not all of us enjoy an academic challenge, we get a buzz from new knowledge and experiences, we are drawn to the scientific side of the argument as we like to have facts and to be right and we have chosen a soft science (biology) which has more variables than a mathematical science like engineering. We probably also like and enjoy nature, the interaction of other species in the ecosystem and have chosen a career in a high prestige profession and have read James Herriot. So playing with bunnies is probably not very high on the list.

Almost forgot - most of us turned down medicine because either we really not social or medicine was going to be boring in comparison to chasing cows around a field (romantic, not practical or financially aware) so we then apply to university and the rest is history.....

Solutions - I know of many farmers/ sons of farmers who are miles better herdsmen and would be able to do 80% of work easily. Other countries have trained cadres of animal health inspectors to do TB testing, meat hygiene etc so not a vet in site so the idea of lowering academic entrance is not realistically a problem in the field. For the other 20% there is always referral as there is now.

So perhaps the USA style of degree of an undergraduate BSc first to be followed would allow one to mature, get more life experience, see real practice, see what your peers are getting out of their degrees before committing to a qualification where half way through the money committed, Granny's expectations and just falling into line force you through the other side?

When I applied, I really did not know anything about other careers beyond a few hours spent at job fairs. My choice was popular with my parents, seemed to be a good idea at the time (16 year old) and to some extent being so immature, the structured course was more re-assuring than the apparent random degree course other people were embarking on.

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:01:28 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Anyone read this neat little bit of research, the foundation of evidence, the basis of evidenced progress?[/quote]

I have read through the summary that you posted, I have not read the whole PhD thesis. I didn't reply immediately as I wanted a little time to digest what I had read. My initial response was that this is wrong, of course animal care and welfare is important to what I and my colleagues do, but having given it more thought I think that there is some truth in it, particularly in regard to veterinary education.

My memories of my training at vet school (15 years ago now, so possibly a bit hazy) are that it was focused on diagnosing and treating illness, with the assumption that if we treated the illness we would improve the welfare of the patient, and in most cases that is probably true. What I think was lacking was teaching an understanding of the relationship between the client and their pet, and in particular the effect managing a chronic disease has on that relationship, and what support is needed from us. I hope that since graduation I have learnt a lot more, but it would have been much better if I had understood this from the beginning.

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

J G Wray — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:53:48 GMT

Trigger warning [Reminder]

Anyone read this neat little bit of research, the foundation of evidence, the basis of evidenced progress?

RE: The development of professional veterinary identity

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:55:28 GMT

J G Wray I have re-titled this thread from your original: "boobs" to something which I think makes the content of your post clearer.

Haven't yet read the thesis you've shared, but looks like an interesting subject ...