The future of vetsurgeon.org

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 16:25:44 GMT

[quote user="Tmac"]and just reached the half century.[/quote]

You and me both - actually I'm a year ahead of you.

[quote user="Tmac"]Oldies can still find strong comments tough.[/quote]

Yeah, me too. Even I've been stung badly from time to time. And I'm no spring chicken!

[quote user="Tmac"]This is why I fully support the "be kind" ethos. I brought my children up to treat others as they would like to be treated. Why should adults be any different, particularly in a profession such as ours?[/quote]

Hear, hear.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Tmac — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 16:18:46 GMT

For the record, I am not a new grad. I have 27 years under my belt and just reached the half century.

Oldies can still find strong comments tough.

In fact, as I age I am possibly more likely to feel intimidated by put-downs from opinionated blowhards...

Age does not always gift us resilience.

This is why I fully support the "be kind" ethos. I brought my children up to treat others as they would like to be treated. Why should adults be any different, particularly in a profession such as ours?

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:59:13 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]But then I think “who gives a fat rat‘s arse” what they think of my question. It’s always worth improving your knowledge and learning from colleagues.[/quote]

I learn more from the basic, one liner questions than the long history ones, just wish people would post more of them.....fear?

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]I just ignore the aggressive rebutles ... just as you learn to ignore people who wind you up in the workplace etc.[/quote]

Even after 6 years on this forum, I find that tough, it does hurt when you've made the effort and all you get is a rebuttal, though to be fair it's rarer than you think. I try to phrase them in a way that simply asks for an opinion, more of 'what do you think' as if you were working with someone.

Neil

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Judith Archbold — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:48:24 GMT

I think this forum is a reflection of real life. I’ve posted what I hope are helpful comments on here in reply to clinical questions and received some very useful advice in return from colleagues. Even at the age of 50 ( but in denial) I sometimes hesitate to raise a clinical point for fear of being shot down in flames by the very few all male ( sorry, but it’s true) “ old boy network ... plus a couple of wannabes “ who think they know everything.

But then I think “who gives a fat rat‘s arse” what they think of my question. It’s always worth improving your knowledge and learning from colleagues. I just ignore the aggressive rebutles ... just as you learn to ignore people who wind you up in the workplace etc.

so PLEASE all newer graduates or those who have been out of the loop for a while don’t ever feel your question is too stupid to ask , or your thoughts not worthy of your peers.

I‘m giving myself 5 stars for this Arlo :)

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Julie Innes — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:40:07 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I think Arlo does a great job[/quote]

Thank you, but seriously (not on a fishing exercise), I do question that, because I see this

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I'm guilty of not always venturing my own opinion on other people's cases for fear of being shot down![/quote]

(and Tmac's comments) as a failure on my part. A big one

[/quote]

Don't take this on yourself, Arlo- it was the same for me even at vet school!! As a group we would be given a case, I would think I had the diagnosis, then certain ultra-confident members of the group would start waxing on about how it was something completely different, in a very authoritative tone. I would keep shtum, glad I hadn't ventured my obviously nonsense opinion, then it would turn out I had been right all along!!

I think there are always going to be people like this, especially in a profession like ours where candidates have been brought up to believe they are so intelligent and wonderful! My mum was a teacher and unfortunately(?) didn't rate intelligence as any more of an achievement than having a particular hair colour. She was always more impressed with actual achievements, and regularly told me I didn't deserve my achievements as I hadn't had to work hard enough to get them!

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:00:34 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I don't think anyone on here deliberately tries to belittle, upset or offend.[/quote]

Yes, some do.

[/quote]

Is this a kind comment?

[/quote]

That depends I guess on whether anyone takes it personally. As Arlo is asking people to look at what, and how, they post, if it means we all wonder whether we've been unkind, then that's a good thing.

However, I suppose it may read as a dig at Anthony. It wasn't. I don't think he is ever deliberately unkind. In fact, I see him as an eccentric, occasionally frustrating, elder statesman!! It is to his credit that he doesn't seem to see any bad behaviour in others.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:26:01 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I think Arlo does a great job[/quote]

Thank you, but seriously (not on a fishing exercise), I do question that, because I see this

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I'm guilty of not always venturing my own opinion on other people's cases for fear of being shot down![/quote]

(and Tmac's comments) as a failure on my part. A big one.

Trying to keep things in perspective and always have to remind myself that there's an awful lot of good, supportive stuff that goes on here too.

But there is also too much of the other.

I've tried to call it out quite a few times over the years, and usually dismissed with cries of 'wet, liberal namby pamby' sort of replies, or protestations that you have to be cruel to be kind.

To those people who feel that way, it's no longer just a difference in ideology between you and me. With the proliferation of alternative discussion forums now open to everyone, being hostile, sarcastic, unkind, intolerant in your posts is a very real threat to your community (not to mention the thing I've worked so hard to build).

That is no longer up for debate. It's a fact.

I really hope that those who have disagreed with me in the past about the importance of 'being kind' online might now see that it poses an existential threat; that these days, if you are not kind, people will just bugger off elsewhere and you'll wind up shouting at grandfather clocks.

There is a familiarity that has built up between us over the years which I think also means some people feel they 'know' other members well enough to have a sideways (or sometimes not-so-sideways) pop.

No. You forget how that appears to other readers who don't know about your familiarity with each other. They can be forgiven for thinking 'Jeez, I'm outa here'.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Can you quote your original post and the replies that upset you.

It may be that some of us, including me, may need to adjust the tone of their replies.[/quote]

You don't stand out to me for that! I really don't think we need to look through old posts to find examples, and I don't want to single anyone out. It's pretty obvious when it happens. For example, and I can't remember who dunnit, but someone slapped a 'dear' (as in a sort of 'calm down dear' patronising put down) in a post the other day. I remember it because I deleted it! Unnecessary. And what the author forgets (I think) is that, like stars, it's not about how they meant it (which could have been quite benign), it is how it could be read (which is very obnoxious).

Anyway, 'nuff of the lecture. I hope we can keep all the fantastic things about this community, the support, the humour, the feisty debates and yes, the disagreements. But let's all get a bit more competitive about making sure our community is numero uno.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Kate Richardson — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 08:04:47 GMT

Anthony Todd

stubborn and frustrating at times but not unkind

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

bevs2251 — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 04:18:18 GMT

I enjoy getting on this site once a week or so. It is enlightening to read and discuss opinions with vets from the opposite side of the world. Often these opinions are very similar to my own and other colleagues of mine here in Australia. We have a collegial vet site as well to discuss cases and issues.

I lucked upon this site about 12 months ago. I was torn apart on here once for daring to question why flank speys were still performed but I'm over that (thick-skinned older female antipodean convict descendant) !!

Is this site advertised at the vet schools ? It might attract some younger posters that way. And it's free, unlike VIN !

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Anthony Todd — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:44:38 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Is this a kind comment? [/quote]

It may be, or maybe not; we're back in the "bullying" arena and I. for sure, need to be given examples of what is considered, by some recipients, [and there have been recent posts emphasising this] to be unsupportive or even verbal bullying.

I have posted "baloney", as have others, but this is directed at the post and not the poster; actual examples may prove me wrong.

It may be that some posters can't cope even with "baloney" or get over-upset when advised to increase or grow more parts to their anatomy?

I don't believe I, and I can't think of others, who deliberately try to offend or belittle but "bullying" is a very subjective emotion.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

David Mills — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:25:09 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I don't think anyone on here deliberately tries to belittle, upset or offend.[/quote]

Yes, some do.

[/quote]

Is this a kind comment?

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Tmac — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:44:54 GMT

It was 5 or 6 years ago. I was recovering from a period of mental/physical exhaustion and had not long returned to work. I had a nasty encounter with an obnoxious client but was concerned for his dog's welfare. I needed some clinical guidance, but perhaps more importantly, some moral support. I was basically told to toughen up. I had shared my fragile state so it was hard to take blunt comments like that. As I said before, I never posted again. I am generally a resilient person and I struggled with some of the comments. I have since read some pretty unempathetic comments when others have sought advice.

I like this new "be kind" ethos that is gaining momentum. Hopefully the younger members of the profession can bring about change.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:37:45 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I don't think anyone on here deliberately tries to belittle, upset or offend.[/quote]

Yes, some do.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Anthony Todd — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:53:01 GMT

[quote user="Tmac"]I'll be honest; I think this is a fantastic forum. But, I never contribute as the very first time I did I was emotionally fragile, looking for advice and was left feeling worse. For those who are confident in their, often polarised, views, this forum can be a lively place. For those needing support it can be an intimidating arena.[/quote]

Can you quote your original post and the replies that upset you.

It may be that some of us, including me, may need to adjust the tone of their replies.

I don't think anyone on here deliberately tries to belittle, upset or offend.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Julie Innes — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:36:03 GMT

I'm a female and pretty active on here! I think it's a great site for trawling the collective wisdom, but I'm guilty of not always venturing my own opinion on other people's cases for fear of being shot down! If my opinion differs from the majority in clinical matters I'll often say nothing.

I do think it can be a good place for support. Although even after all the time I've been here and having gotten to know posters style better I still find some posters a bit, well, scary!

I think Arlo does a great job (shameless sucking up!) And it's a site I like and always come back to

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:09:44 GMT

Tmac, that's a very generous thing to say, and I am not sure i really deserve it, but thank you :)

And thank you for posting that, because you've illustrated my point better than I could.

We need to keep the liveliness. We need to keep the robust, challenging level of discussion. But we need a lot more kindness too. These things are not mutually exclusive.

[quote user="Tmac"]Is there any demographic data about those who contribute most regularly/least?[/quote]

My name isn't Zuckerberg, so no!

[quote user="Tmac"]For those needing support it can be an intimidating arena.[/quote]

Funny you should mention that. Watch this space.

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Iain Richards — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:05:11 GMT

[quote user="Tmac"]Is there any demographic data about those who contribute most regularly/least? It could be interesting..[/quote]

My school biology teacher, a no-nonsense Lancastrian, had an occasional pithy turn of phrase, "Empty vessels make most noise."

RE: The future of vetsurgeon.org

Tmac — Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:54:04 GMT

I'll be honest; I think this is a fantastic forum. But, I never contribute as the very first time I did I was emotionally fragile, looking for advice and was left feeling worse. For those who are confident in their, often polarised, views, this forum can be a lively place. For those needing support it can be an intimidating arena.

I think what Arlo has achieved and continues to strive to achieve for our profession is incredible.

Is there any demographic data about those who contribute most regularly/least? It could be interesting...