Reincarnation

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Thu, 05 Apr 2018 14:49:11 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Not sure the RCVS has any influence in undergrad selection? [/quote]

M/s Lockett has promised me she will supply the numbers of "retiring" members by year and gender going back as far as she can, which will emphasis the problem and, hopefully, avenues for solutions.

Might even be some valuable reasons given???

The great and good of the RCVS should, and probably do, mix with university leaders and could, just by contact, acquaint them of the employment trends in the profession versus the graduation trends and numbers which would be very helpful.

As far as I know gender and age changes, both in and out, of the profession have never been mentioned and the first fact I've seen is the recent 12 of 120 undergraduates being male at Glasgow

So, if the RCVS wanted to, they could perhaps influence undergraduate veterinary intake in some practical ways to the profession's future advantage.

RE: Reincarnation

Rob Loxley — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 19:55:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I suppose it's down the the RCVS to influence the undergrad. selection process.[/quote]

Not sure the RCVS has any influence in undergrad selection?

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 19:01:01 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]One thing I did learn (and still unashamedly use to this day) is that if you smile at people they find it harder to be mean [/quote]

Smile?? Too many A levels for that.....

RE: Reincarnation

Julie Innes — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 18:36:51 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Valuable experience of working with the general public and customer service I would have thought. Although I was a mature student, I had previously worked in agriculture and road haulage and had had no experience of working with the public, and which I initially found hard at graduation having to deal with the great unwashed. It is certainly a skill in its own right.[/quote]

I often say I learned more about the general public and customer service through waitressing/ retail than I did at Vet college!

One thing I did learn (and still unashamedly use to this day) is that if you smile at people they find it harder to be mean (whether that be about a wrong pizza or being kept a little late for their appointment!) I even smile when I am on the telephone- try it, it works!

RE: Reincarnation

David Mills — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 18:09:57 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]My lawyer friend reports that some of her clients are just as demanding and obnoxious as ours (probably the same ones), and have similar ridiculous expectations of success in cases where it just isn't possible. It addition to that she is under pressure from bosses to make money -they charge work in blocks of 6 minutes or part thereof, (so 7 minutes would be charged at 6 x 2 = 12) She has a daily target of 7 hours of charged work, which she is expected to make up in her own (i.e. unpaid) time if she doesn't meet. [/quote]

Not quite this straightforward. Lawyers can charge thinking time outside of working hours for cases. They can also cap fees, and all they lose is time.

What you are talking about are targets, which are common to any service industry. It does not make veterinary and law comparable. Lawyers very rarely deal with the emotional investment of an animal / owner, death (meted out by themselves), or any other. And before anyone says they do deal with emotion, yes they do, but in the context of being an adversarial advocate specialising in the law surrounding the case, not the direct emotion we see. There is a subtle removal.

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 18:09:23 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Stringy teenage bullock who isn't the herd leader but convinced he's the bee's knees [/quote]

and insists on consulting in a long white coat.

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:31:45 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I cannot see how or why a veterinary career should be anymore or less stressful than any other demanding profession?[/quote]

Because the new grad has the obvious need for manual skills which you can't learn from books; there is no A level in knot-tying or hitting the vein [let alone entering it!!].

Handling animals can be taught, usually by grim experience; the examination of the mouth of a snappy chihuahua isn't to be learned from a text-book.

All the above must come as a big shock to those with straight As who have never got anything wrong in their lives.

Practical inadequacy is very obvious to the owner, or farmer, and rectal examination is an art as delicate as a square-cut off Jimmy Anderson, for which no A level equips.

Must come as a shock to some new-grads when they do their first PD in the only cow they've ever touched.....

Certainly did me!!

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:19:57 GMT

If ever the RC provide the leaving numbers with, hopefully, reasons, we may discover more about reasons for quitting the profession.

I suppose it's down the the RCVS to influence the undergrad. selection process.

Back in my day in NZ there was a desperate need for agricultural vets so low, but adequate, [??] exam results, and some apparent interest and aptitude, were all that was needed.

Vetting was regarded as much below medicine or dentistry so you got people who really wanted to do it, 'cos it lacked prestige as we were slightly better than stock agents or AI inseminators.

RE: Reincarnation

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:14:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Is it not the type of pressure though? I can't imagine any client of a lawyer saying "are you sure. Google says..." , or the pressure of not being able to spay a cat in under an hour.[/quote]

I cannot see how or why a veterinary career should be anymore or less stressful than any other demanding profession?

My lawyer friend reports that some of her clients are just as demanding and obnoxious as ours (probably the same ones), and have similar ridiculous expectations of success in cases where it just isn't possible. It addition to that she is under pressure from bosses to make money -they charge work in blocks of 6 minutes or part thereof, (so 7 minutes would be charged at 6 x 2 = 12) She has a daily target of 7 hours of charged work, which she is expected to make up in her own (i.e. unpaid) time if she doesn't meet.

RE: Reincarnation

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:37:50 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"](Despite having gone to private school, I also worked every weekend from the age of 14 in a shop, then later as a waitress. What bracket am I in? )[/quote]

Valuable experience of working with the general public and customer service I would have thought. Although I was a mature student, I had previously worked in agriculture and road haulage and had had no experience of working with the public, and which I initially found hard at graduation having to deal with the great unwashed. It is certainly a skill in its own right.

RE: Reincarnation

Julie Innes — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:08:19 GMT

I agree with Anthony here. We were actually just talking this morning about how we feel the "right" people may not be getting into vet schools. I've had some really excellent school students devestatedby refusal from the admissions committee, and I have a lovely student (manning the phones for me right now!) who has been coming here for years and is desperate to be a vet, however tortuous the route, and who doesn't quite have the grades, so has been refused (again)

I think we need to look again at entrance qualifications. I see a lot of encouraging talk about trying to encourage more GP vets, but when the intake is all high fliers who all want to be specialists.....

(Despite having gone to private school, I also worked every weekend from the age of 14 in a shop, then later as a waitress. What bracket am I in? )

RE: Reincarnation

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:01:42 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I know a trainee lawyer, and she is put under far more pressure than I have ever been as a vet.[/quote]

Is it not the type of pressure though? I can't imagine any client of a lawyer saying "are you sure. Google says..." , or the pressure of not being able to spay a cat in under an hour.

The elephant in the room, though, is the difference between academic performance [Pat V in my year could recite pages from a text book, word-for-word] and the realities , both verbal and mechanical, of vetting.

Most of day-to-day vetting can't be taught, it's just got to be gradually learnt by doing it often, this includes dealing with difficult clients.

Would an adequate exam result [as in my day, and pretty low by today's standard] and the highest "aptitude" and "practical" potential not result in the best vets, not the other way round?

Would a number of senior/experienced vets or vet nurses be prepared to assess potential undergraduates for suitability?

Er, [eg the inept trainee assistant nurse in the notorious Medivet setter I/V incident]

RE: Reincarnation

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:34:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Which might just explain an exodus when the going gets tough as it undoubtedly does?[/quote]

Dunno. It must be just as tough in other professions too? I know a trainee lawyer, and she is put under far more pressure than I have ever been as a vet.

RE: Reincarnation

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:19:11 GMT

Which might just explain an exodus when the going gets tough as it undoubtedly does?

RE: Reincarnation

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:26:43 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]but can we include 'mummy's boys' in that too? [/quote]

I take your point but most of the schools have intakes that are 80-90% female and 90% of those privately educated with comfortable middle class professional parents. Their first experience of the great unwashed British public is 23-25 years old in their first job. Its not surprisingly not quite how they saw life unfolding. Looking at it the other way the client sees young posh stuck up snotty cow looking down their nose at them from a privileged perspective.

[/quote]

That correlates exactly with what my Niece reports from Edinburgh where she is in her first year. 12 of 120 , or 10%, are male and about 75% have come from a privileged background of some sort.

I wonder if we will become just a hobby profession for rich kids?

RE: Reincarnation

David Mills — Tue, 03 Apr 2018 23:25:25 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]'posh stuck up' scrub bulls[/quote]

What's one of them?

[/quote]

Stringy teenage bullock who isn't the herd leader but convinced he's the bee's knees

[/quote]

What a fabulous description of Martin Atkinson.

RE: Reincarnation

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:56:29 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]'posh stuck up' scrub bulls[/quote]

What's one of them?

[/quote]

Stringy teenage bullock who isn't the herd leader but convinced he's the bee's knees

RE: Reincarnation

Clive Ansell — Mon, 02 Apr 2018 10:06:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]'posh stuck up' scrub bulls[/quote]

What's one of them?

RE: Reincarnation

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 02 Apr 2018 09:36:00 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]but can we include 'mummy's boys' in that too? [/quote]

[/quote]

Seen a few 'posh stuck up' scrub bulls too, to be fair!

RE: Reincarnation

grumpyoldman — Sun, 01 Apr 2018 18:46:41 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]but can we include 'mummy's boys' in that too? [/quote]

RE: Reincarnation

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:34:35 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]probably does make you appreciate your life more than some of the Daddys girls[/quote]

I agree with you that some people need a dose of other people's lives to appreciate what they have...but can we include 'mummy's boys' in that too?

RE: Reincarnation

grumpyoldman — Fri, 30 Mar 2018 14:46:16 GMT

I think it helps to have not a silver spoon in the teenage years and as a student. Working in lower skilled labour intensive jobs ,fast food outlets , public houses etc pre and while at university to make ends meet probably does make you appreciate your life more than some of the Daddys girls who go from private school to university and outside term time go skiing and have caribbean holidays .

RE: Reincarnation

Iain Richards — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:03:19 GMT

I take your point George. I'll take on a issue single-handed if it has merit for practice*

JW - I think we are in solid agreement here.

*I know "practice" has no real recognition within the VSA, but it is practice (ie public/vet intereaction) that is the bulk of the RCVS work.

RE: Reincarnation

J G Wray — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:55:37 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]When on BVA council, I represented Lakeland and had a responsibility to take a members issue to BVA, even where I knew it wasn't a valid concern. I can't make that promise as it's not in the remit of council members. That's not dodging a question, that's reality.[/quote]

And that's why the RCVS Election is so inauthentic. It has the trappings of something democratic when it's nothing of the sort. For those who stand, there's mileage, there are votes in saying they would be approachable but it all evaporates.

[quote user="Iain Richards"]RFP is an appalling way of describing members. I would say it in open council. [/quote]

Well, it has the merit of honesty and serves the purpose of reminding RCVS and those who are elected who pays for their adventures outside the Act, through the use of the Charter. As for "members" you're right on the money there. If you read the Strategic Plan you will see the word used seven times and none of them clearly related to err, [M]embers of the [R]oyal [C]ollege of [V]eterinary [S]urgeons. There are members of staff and members of committees, but....

It's an institutional, cultural thing

RE: Reincarnation

George Cooper — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:33:16 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

You know, as well as I, that the role of a councillor is very limited, so having any form of agenda or representing any sort of interest group is not possible.

[/quote]

Iain - this is not strictly true when one looks at the activities at RCVS Council level over the past 20-25 years. There are numerous examples of "driven and charismatic" members carrying their own agenda for change into the heart of Rcvs and largely succeeding. There are some current examples too, where a personal standpoint has held sway and influenced many others, not necessarily for the benefit of all.