RCVS Council

RE: RCVS Council

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 03 May 2018 11:23:47 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]I haven’t yet stumbled on the actual full result, so am uncertain as to who has been successful, and what their intentions are.[/quote]

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/archive/2018/05/02/rcvs-announces-winners-of-the-2018-council-election.aspx

[quote user="George Cooper"]Fed up for both David and Iain, as you have both entered into robust intelligent dialogue here[/quote]

Yes indeed, and for that. Must say, I had a very thought-provoking discussion with one of our members last night, and this dialogue is something I want to encourage a lot more of.

The barrier to that has been that people standing for Council or who are in some way involved with the RCVS and who post on here have sometimes become lightning rods for genuinely felt frustrations or disagreements with the RCVS as a body.

I think the root of all that lies in a history of the College being perceived (and perhaps being) by a significant number as remote, high-handed, dictatorial and a bit out of touch with the people who make up the vast majority of its members: coal face practitioners.

But from where I sit on the touchline, I think that's changing. The RCVS strategic plan specifically commits to:

Develop a mechanism via which members of the veterinary and veterinary nursing professions can proactively engage with the College so that their issues and concerns are fed into discussions at an early enough stage to influence our agenda, where appropriate.

And it seems to me that some of the people elected to Council in recent years are much more visibly engaged with the rest of the profession and more in touch with "the common man".

These things are still playing out, and you need to see how that commitment above translates into action. In other words, signs that the College is not just listening, but that it has heard too. And I think that also needs to be / is starting to be reflected in the tone of communication that comes from the College.

It's a process of change and I think if VetSurgeon members want to be part of that change, and not dismissed as hecklers, everyone needs to take special care when debating with representatives of the RCVS here.

Don't let your posts get weighed down with historical baggage. Don't turn those who DO debate and discuss here into lightning rods for your frustrations. If someone associated with the College posts something here which seems to you to be high-handed or dictatorial (which chimes with your broader frustrations), recognise that this might just be their writing style, and don't jump straight down their throats!

Sure, ask searching questions. Absolutely. Hold those you elect to account. But be Louis Theroux about it! Balance criticism with praise for the good stuff. Don't let it ever sound personal. That way, your frustrations are much more likely to be taken seriously, rather than dismissed as just a rant.

Thank you again David Catlow and Iain Richards. Power to your elbow, as they say.

RE: RCVS Council

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 May 2018 11:03:10 GMT

I did vote for David (and Ian!) but have to say i became alarmed at David's opinions on telemedicine. I believe it is a potentially dangerous move based on a get rich quick philosophy.

Congratulations to the winners. Commiseration to the unsuccessful!

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Thu, 03 May 2018 10:33:38 GMT

Thanks Jo and George. I thin Neil Smith it was who posted on FB that 50% of the vote went to the three winners - so pretty good support there! Keep plugging away on the telemedicine Jo, you can be the little boy shouting - "But he's got no clothes on!"

RE: RCVS Council

Jo Dyer — Thu, 03 May 2018 06:44:38 GMT

I'm sorry to hear that David and Iain missed out this year. David - you will be missed. Iain - I was hoping to meet you and have interesting discussions. I expect I'll be in the same position next year when I'm up for re-election. I can see the logic of having a smaller council but reducing the numbers to 3 each year could mean we end up with no new faces, as this year, which is regrettable. Maybe next year it will be all new faces though, who knows?

RE: RCVS Council

George Cooper — Thu, 03 May 2018 00:34:31 GMT

Fed up for both David and Iain, as you have both entered into robust intelligent dialogue here and elsewhere, and I for one had been eagerly awaiting the opportunity to observe and probably encourage your contributions to Council. I haven’t yet stumbled on the actual full result, so am uncertain as to who has been successful, and what their intentions are.

i hope, though, that you pair, now that you have the RCVS-challenging bit between your teeth will continue to lobby, to challenge, to devise ever-innovative ways of garnering opinion from grass roots members and applying that to influencing (if at all humanly possible) the creaking monolith in Belgravia - particularly (getting my personal wish in early) in challenging the ever increasing lean towards appeasement of the Public (as opposed to the focus being the animal), and to further the slowly gathering movement that “because we can, does NOT mean we must” that younger grads emerge, sadly, under the shadow of. There is much to do. Our profession is ... .... ... .... (enter your own observations) and it needs thrusting, cogent, persistent commentary from as many as possible. (scope for uniting “politically” under one “For Practice” ticket, perhaps......I might even join.....)

RE: RCVS Council

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 02 May 2018 21:28:50 GMT

Congratulations and commiserations and thanks to Iain and David for taking the time and trouble to stand for election and for engaging in debate on here.

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Wed, 02 May 2018 21:15:57 GMT

Indeed, congratulations to them.

RCVS may have to make unpopular decisions, but as long as those have the interests of the profession at heart and are determined more by standards of care and enhanced welfare than consumer noise, that's fine.

RE: RCVS Council

David Catlow — Wed, 02 May 2018 19:59:21 GMT

congratulations to the three people elected to RCVS Council. All fine people.

There's a huge amount of change happening in our veterinary world, and hopefully RCVS will provide us with a clear framework to help our people, organisations and businesses navigate that change successfully

I suspect that it may make some decisions that will be unpopular with some (twas always thus), but making certain that the profession also reflects the public interest, and most importantly animal welfare, will ensure that public confidence is maintained in the profession.

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:10:47 GMT

My version of the Boris bus. Both are equally unlikely, but mine is easier to swallow

RE: RCVS Council

Niall Taylor — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 22:19:40 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]if no-one else butters your muffin. [/quote]

What? I didn't realise muffins were part of the deal!

Niall

RE: RCVS Council

Richard Carter — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:32:50 GMT

Last day to vote

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 14:15:08 GMT

Last few days to vote folks, either on line or by post. You can just vote for one person if no-one else butters your muffin.

RE: RCVS Council

David Catlow — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:38:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]If you go back to the PhD thesis, just about the only objective study of this, you will notice that the author points out a disconnection between veterinary science and how it is supported by the Regulator and animal welfare. Recognition for GPvets should, in my view, be tied not to community but to the service of improving animal welfare, which you do not mention.[/quote][quote user="J G Wray"]You really don't get what I'm talking about do you? I think, from your time at RCVS you have been shaped by the culture and systems there and these do not understand the concept of service over very long periods of time to the purpose of enhancing animal welfare.[/quote]

Your animal welfare comments are off target; having spent the last 30 years in veterinary practice turning out 24/7 both paid and unpaid to make certain an animal receives the care it deserves and now working for an animal welfare charity, I’m confident that enhancing animal welfare sits at the heart of what and others do in our profession every day. Its implicit I hope, in all our aims. Safeguarding animal health and welfare is what RCVS does. It is not run by the profession for the profession.

The people I admire most in the profession and my role models, are those who have often been in it for the long game; turning out day and night, both paid and unpaid. Vets such as the late Jim Gourley in Manchester who was at the front of the queue for decades looking out for those who couldn’t afford vet fees but whose animals needed care. Vets who have often given back far more than they have taken.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Nope, there is more than one way. The latest Strategic Plan theoretically commits to opening up communication from the profession, to influence RCVS. However, that's just a first step. The next would be adopting a culture of trust in the input from GP vets and that does not need to lie exclusively with GP vet Councillors.[/quote]

[quote user="J G Wray"]How about this idea of taking input from outside RCVS? Are you prepared to see the Strategic Plan's commitments in this respect come to fruition?[/quote]

I have always admired people who turn up and throw bricks from the back and argue the opposite case for every scenario, it can be very amusing, but it’s helpful and definitely more effective if they are up to speed with what’s going on around them.

Regarding your comment relating to ‘opening up communication from the profession’, what do you think RCVS is and has been doing for the last few years? How many vets do you think are actively involved in the numerous working groups and reply to the plethora of consultations? The answer is very many to the first and thousands to the second. RCVS is informed in everything it does by the relevant expertise, experience and opinion of vets working across our industry. So if the outputs are rubbish then presumably they must have been informed by rubbish…. Perhaps you should write to the whole profession Jonathan, let them know through the pages of VT or VR and let everyone know what you think of their input.

RE: RCVS Council

Chris Milligan — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:52:09 GMT

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]I would say that suicide and mental health are two distinct issues with a small degree of overlap. Many are circumstantial and sudden, and I feel it is important to get teaching of this issue into vet schools and work places.[/quote]

At the risk of applauding a potential politician (:D) this point is key and something, despite some fairly admirable efforts recently on behalf of the RCVS in particular to address the mental health of our colleagues, that has been conflated - whilst very tragic I sometimes worry when our profession looks inwards it does concentrate on the issue of suicide whilst neglecting the much wider and more prevalent mental health issues that many of our colleagues suffer - loneliness, inadequacy, perceived or actual lack of support, worry or embarrassment about engaging with the current mental health schemes both within and without the professsion, failing to meet one's expectations of oneself, fear of client confrontation, the new phenomenon of unregulated social media judgement, fear of the disciplinary process, drink, drugs etc. etc. etc. not to mention all the other crises and issues unrelated to the profession that pile on top of these and amplify issues. Many people suffering these are not - nor are ever likely to be - suicidal.

RE: RCVS Council

J G Wray — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:12:27 GMT

Trigger warnings [disagreement],[pointing out sophistry]

[quote user="David Catlow"]Perhaps it’s easier to identify significant research outcomes and publications rather than a multitude of smaller, but no less meritorious, contributions a practicing vet may make to their field of community over many years.[/quote]

If you go back to the PhD thesis, just about the only objective study of this, you will notice that the author points out a disconnection between veterinary science and how it is supported by the Regulator and animal welfare. Recognition for GPvets should, in my view, be tied not to community but to the service of improving animal welfare, which you do not mention.

[quote user="David Catlow"]But the distribution of awards is also a reflection of the nominations received. It takes considerable time to write a nomination. How many of the people criticising the awards system have actually ever submitted one themselves?[/quote]

You really don't get what I'm talking about do you? I think, from your time at RCVS you have been shaped by the culture and systems there and these do not understand the concept of service over very long periods of time to the purpose of enhancing animal welfare.

[quote user="David Catlow"]The only way to make certain that RCVS remains focussed on and understands 1st opinion veterinary practice and the issues that are faced by vets every day, is to ensure that the Council has sufficient numbers of members who have the relevant experience.[/quote]

Nope, there is more than one way. The latest Strategic Plan theoretically commits to opening up communication from the profession, to influence RCVS. However, that's just a first step. The next would be adopting a culture of trust in the input from GP vets and that does not need to lie exclusively with GP vet Councillors.

[quote user="David Catlow"]It needs practitioners to be immersed in all RCVS activities [/quote]

Not if you're prepared, as a Councillor from whatever background, to listen and change

[quote user="David Catlow"]The cross section and balance of views from the profession is always very valuable though. I long ago recognised that the view of others, perhaps working in a different area to my own, brings huge insight to a discussion. When I get round to taking my own blinkers off and listening to others I learn a great deal more[/quote]

How about this idea of taking input from outside RCVS? Are you prepared to see the Strategic Plan's commitments in this respect come to fruition?

RE: RCVS Council

J G Wray — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 15:54:42 GMT

Trigeer warnings [disagreement] [reference to history]

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]Failure is a great teacher though. [/quote]

No it isn't. It really, really hurts. You only move on when you have recovered financially, taken a long hard look at yourself, dropped any self pity and become objective about it.

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]I think fear of failure is rife amongst new graduates particularly often scared at being struck off for making a perceived "mistake", when sometimes it is fine to try something and see what happens. The RCVS has work to do to restore reputation here, which I want to be part of.[/quote]

Again, you're behind the curve as they say, with Mr Stace's "no blame culture" initiative from a couple of years ago, which current Councillors will be au fait with.

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]The outcomes may be a long way off, but should certainly help the calibre of graduate coming through.[/quote]

But, what have you got to offer for GP vets here and now?

RE: RCVS Council

David Catlow — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:34:54 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Not so inadvertently I feel. I think it is more that it is a considerable challenge to understand how to recognise GPVets, because conventional acknowledgement systems like awards don't lend themselves well to the purpose and if you have an organisation which has structures built on esoteric academic recognition principles rather than, for want of a better word, vocational principles there's an issue. Couple that with institutional deafness, lack of leadership, unease, prejudice, cognitive bias and ignorance and nothing happens, but the status quo remains and for an institution that's a good thing.[/quote]

I don’t share your summary view and choice of names to call RCVS and those who give a great deal of their time to help contribute to the direction of our profession, however I do share your view that Awards do not lend themselves well to the recognition of vets working in general practice and the massive contribution they make to society and the reputation that the profession generally still enjoys.

A few cynically given awards that tick a ‘recognition’ box would achieve nothing. They have to reflect a genuine sentiment.

I have been a constant advocate of awards being given to recognise service over and above the day job and have frequently stated that practitioners are significantly under represented compared to winners from academic circles. Perhaps it’s easier to identify significant research outcomes and publications rather than a multitude of smaller, but no less meritorious, contributions a practicing vet may make to their field of community over many years. But the distribution of awards is also a reflection of the nominations received. It takes considerable time to write a nomination. How many of the people criticising the awards system have actually ever submitted one themselves?

The only way to make certain that RCVS remains focussed on and understands 1st opinion veterinary practice and the issues that are faced by vets every day, is to ensure that the Council has sufficient numbers of members who have the relevant experience. It is currently overweight in academic and those from corporate environments, who presumably see RCVS as a very worthwhile place for their employees to gain insight and help align their strategic aims. It is more challenging to find sufficient numbers of self-employed vets from private practice who have the necessary experience, resources and support to give their time to RCVS affairs.

It needs practitioners to be immersed in all RCVS activities The cross section and balance of views from the profession is always very valuable though. I long ago recognised that the view of others, perhaps working in a different area to my own, brings huge insight to a discussion. When I get round to taking my own blinkers off and listening to others I learn a great deal more

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:10:50 GMT

Not exactly disagreeing Matthew, but the "fear of failure" isn't just and RCVS matter (although there is much they can do to help). We've recognised this at the Lancaster Final Year seminar for a long time and there may be some aspect of the learning process through school and University that contributes to this. The undergrad course is a mass of facts and techniques to absorb, and there is always someone there who knows more than you, probably assessing you. Even the Great Barrie Edwards had a habit of saying, "And what else?" at the end of any case presentation. I suspect we are no different when we have students for EMS. So the pressure to always be right is there from an early age. Potentially earlier if you include the drive for all A* at A level.

I know that problem-based learning was trialled as a way of getting around the assimilation of fact, but has no largely been dropped as students were just rote learning those problems. I don't have a solution, other than perhaps to ensure the students understand that they don't need to know everything. I liken it to a Bell curve - average is normal, everything right is deviating from the norm.

RE: RCVS Council

Matthew Plumtree — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:47:14 GMT

I'm sorry to hear that. Sadly the issue touches too many members of our profession. I would say that suicide and mental health are two distinct issues with a small degree of overlap. Many are circumstantial and sudden, and I feel it is important to get teaching of this issue into vet schools and work places. Here's a nice link to the considerable impact it can have https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380405/

I would argue that this is for everyone, including the "well" as you put it.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Disruptive innovation is a corrupt theology, filled with bias and a recipe for failure. This has already been covered.[/quote]

Failure is a great teacher though. I think fear of failure is rife amongst new graduates particularly often scared at being struck off for making a perceived "mistake", when sometimes it is fine to try something and see what happens. The RCVS has work to do to restore reputation here, which I want to be part of. The graduate outcomes group has made some interesting, creditable suggestions for future functioning of the vet degree that I wish to see pushed through (e.g. better access for those doing it as a 2nd/3rd career, tracking so that those wishing to specialise in particular species can do so earlier such as at Davis in the US or Utrecht in the Netherlands). The outcomes may be a long way off, but should certainly help the calibre of graduate coming through.

RE: RCVS Council

J G Wray — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 07:32:53 GMT

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]I'm keen for the profession to get a grip of our suicide and mental health issues.[/quote]

Dr Plumtree,

This list has lost a contributor. The RCVS has been touched by tragedy and the older GPs here have suffered more loss than others, latterly Clive Kemeys from my own year. No one is doubting the seriousness of the issue, but RCVS have not sat on their hands. They have the Mind Matters initiative, championed by the Chief executive and they have significant resource and reasearch, not least from Dr Bartram. This subject has its commitment, priority and ongoing work. Your view is undoubtedly worthy, but you are riding a bus that's already on the move, driven by others.

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]With consolidation of practices into the big 6 groups with a smattering of independents, [/quote]

There are still more than 60% of practices in private ownership

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]the way we deliver veterinary service is ripe for innovative disruption by new providers, and this should be encouraged.[/quote]

Disruptive innovation is a corrupt theology, filled with bias and a recipe for failure. This has already been covered.

Nobody should confuse innovation, the "new", with the more desirable "progress". They are neither synonymous nor complementary.

[quote user="Matthew Plumtree"]Imagine a vet returning after a career break, but with kids to look after, who can do consultations from home with owners via access to these data.[/quote]

Imagining stuff, having vision is seductive, stimulating, fun, but not often grounded in realism or the "best" or the maintenance of objectivity. It is also futuristic in a nebulous sense and what I'm interested in is practical changes at RCVS now and in the next five years.

What can you offer the majority of veterinary surgeons who are still in independent practice, mostly in GP work and well?

RE: RCVS Council

Matthew Plumtree — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 22:04:48 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

I agree with you on the mental health aspects Matthew and it is an interesting take on disruptive innovation. I was at the RCVS innovation symposium and was interested in the comment, form a presenter, that many of the disruptive innovators started life operating illegally. I don't feel that the current level of tech is good enough to produce any reliable information applicable to a clinical situation (something stated at that meeting). It is also the case that human GPs are wary of remote diagnosis eg Babylon, as it is being used, thus far, by the young. This could result in GP practices being left with the high dependency patients alone, and with fewer funds, as the funding for the young and fit has gone to the telemedicine practice. We need to embrace it with care and ensure any business model follows the accepted code of conduct.

[/quote]

Good points there Ian. Like I say, lot's of things to be ironed out. The RCVS must ensure regulation keeps pace with innovation. It's an area that has potential to make the job fit better into people's lives, and we should embrace that to ease our recruitment issues going forward.

RE: RCVS Council

Iain Richards — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 21:40:25 GMT

RE: RCVS Council

Matthew Plumtree — Sun, 08 Apr 2018 20:40:22 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Iain Richards"]I have one aim if elected to council and that is to ensure, as far as possible, that anything the college is doing or planning, does not have the potential for a damaging impact on practice[/quote]

This is all so depressing. I ask whether anyone is interested in improving the chances for those who might wish to return after any kind of career break, or improving the culture at RCVS toward GPVETS, or showing some leadership and the response is an ambition to stop harm.

In Dr Catlow's case there are weird aspirations about disruptive innovation and some kind of kid's stuff about how to earn the public's respect [Here's the news, we know how to do that]. It's just so lightweight and derivative.

In Dr Plumtree's case, well who knows?

[quote user="Iain Richards"]I'd have thought I was on JW's wavelength in my statement supporting a viable (profitable) practice as the heart of the profession.[/quote]

You are, but it might be as well to get on to another Wavelength as well. Nick Stace said this at Wavelength in 2016

"..Another Nick, Nick Stace of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS), found distrust, dysfunctional governance and little clarity of direction, coupled with low public confidence in the regulator judged out of touch when he arrived as CEO. What he didn’t do was blame anyone for the situation, he accepted it aware that many people he needed to work with had been part of what went on before..."

Maybe you're right and the best that can be done is damage limitation.

[/quote][quote user="J G Wray"]

In Dr Plumtree's case, well who knows?

[/quote]

Dr Wray

I don't go on this forum too regularly, hence the delayed response. Apologies. As per my manifesto, I'm keen for the profession to get a grip of our suicide and mental health issues. The RCVS are the only ones with the clout to get big employment groups, indie representatives, BVA etc all in the same room and produce a coordinated plan traduce our suicide rate and risk, starting from vet student recruitment all the way through to retirement. I have also for some time wanted to overhaul PSS as I believe it can be a significant force for good in the employee's life. With consolidation of practices into the big 6 groups with a smattering of independents, the way we deliver veterinary service is ripe for innovative disruption by new providers, and this should be encouraged. For example, we should be braver with telemedicine, particularly with advances in technology to assess animals (microchips that read temperature, force plate analysis etc). Imagine a vet returning after a career break, but with kids to look after, who can do consultations from home with owners via access to these data. Obviously lots of things to iron out as to how this works and what kind of cases this is applicable for (e.g. revisit after starting elderly arthritic patient on an NSAID). However, I can think of a number of folks for whom this would be a very appealing way of doing part of the job when life places other demands on us. It's up to RCVS to provide the framework for this (and a safety net for when things go wrong, for all parties). Hope that makes some of my views a little clearer.

Matt

RE: RCVS Council

David Mills — Sat, 07 Apr 2018 20:09:52 GMT

Interesting work being done at Nottingham on this around consultations and especially vaccination consultations, some were presented in the clinical research abstracts stream at BSAVA this week. Can't remember if they've published it yet if not it is imminent.

One piece of interest was that clients are to an extent "trained" what to expect.

RE: RCVS Council

Rob Loxley — Sat, 07 Apr 2018 17:50:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I suspect what clients want from vets and what vets think they want may be very different.....[/quote]

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/168/23/616.long