Famous Horsey Folk

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:48:00 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]https://thehorse.com/14010/equine-related-human-injuries/[/quote]

Thank you Anthony, that's a good article, it's 18 years old, though, and you are right, the vet profession is extremely resistant to change...this one is my latest rant:

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/vr.k2672?ijkey=WNMGqZIzJsW7DBt&keytype=ref

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:24:53 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]I have more work to do...[/quote]

As usual with safety issues of any nature it always comes down to "yeah, but it won't happen to me"

"Try getting a male Italian motorist to wear a seat-belt" used to be the oft-quoted example.

An argument is the same as helmets for cyclists, in that it is not the bike-rider that is the only victim following injury.

You could do well to start with this.....

https://thehorse.com/14010/equine-related-human-injuries/

and then stay at home.

[A leading equine vet in NZ, my mentor, was kicked while in a 2yo parade ring and suffered a ruptured kidney.....]

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 09:49:11 GMT

Thank you for that update, I have more work to do...

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Sarah Gowen — Sun, 15 Jul 2018 22:27:44 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]From my understanding, all (or most) of the undergraduates in the uk are wearing helmets, we are influencing a future generation. The last to comply was my alma mater, the RVC, and this was after one of the interns received a kick in the head from a Shetland...(Vet student, personal communication).[/quote]

Not quite true, unless things have very recently changed, I graduated Cambridge in 2017 and I don't think I ever saw anyone wearing hats when handling horses on the ground.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Bob Russell — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:54:04 GMT

My equine days are long gone but looking back I put myself in potentially dangerous situations.

There were a couple of horses that 'only I could get close enough to sedate'. I must have been mad!

A direct hit is unlikely to have much of a difference of outcome. helmeted or not.

A rearing horse that comes down with a bit of a clunk might. Many injuries happen when you get thrown off balance and a hat might give valuable protection.

I did not wear a hat or body protector except when riding. I would now!

Nor sure what would really stop anyone from wearing some protective gear but the danger is that someone becomes more adventurous with a hat and body protection. It is well established for car drivers and cyclists (I understand) to take more risks the better protected they feel. This needs to be educated out of people.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 00:20:27 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"](As for the renowned equine surgeon who sent me back a very lively three month old foal after abdominal surgery with about a million staples in the skin from xiphoid to pubis and the message to take them out in two weeks time - 'Gee - thanks mate')[/quote]

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Luke Edwards — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 18:04:45 GMT

"Seems to me we need a belt and braces attitude - good horsemanship and protective gear when appropriate."

Bob, Jill-

I could not agree more with this sentiment.

Regards,

Luke

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

bob lehner — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 11:12:51 GMT

Luke makes some very good points and is to be commended for teaching students to be careful at all times.

Seems to me we need a belt and braces attitude - good horsemanship and protective gear when appropriate.

Sadly even supposedly knowledgeable and experienced horse people do incredibly stupid things - I well remember seeing a well-regarded MFH let her toddler grandchild literally crawl between the hind legs of her hunter....! (As for the renowned equine surgeon who sent me back a very lively three month old foal after abdominal surgery with about a million staples in the skin from xiphoid to pubis and the message to take them out in two weeks time - 'Gee - thanks mate').

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 10:34:27 GMT

I have read both Jill and Luke’s posts with interest and, while I agree entirely with Luke about learning good horsemanship, I believe that hats should be worn especially by those who are inexperienced but that it reduces risk for everyone around horses.

I agree that it is not a substitute for skill but that risk assessments should be made and I can’t see that any drawbacks in wearing a hat outweigh the potential protection. It’s a good habit for young children and vets to get into.

An experienced horsewoman friend of mine was pulled off her feet by a rude horse and bashed the back of her head on a dry stone wall and I believe her hat protected her. In the field with young horses there can be hooves flying around and people have been kicked in the head at shows when they thought they were fine.

on balance I think they should be worn though statistics of head injury round horses and cases where a hat would or would not have made a difference would be helpful

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Jill Butterworth — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 10:08:51 GMT

Thank you for your feedback on the photo, Luke. It was chosen for the expression.

We are indeed both passionate about safety, and I firmly believe there is sufficient evidence to promote one single, simple idea which will save lives, whatever the time ratios, and I'm assuming vets spend little time on horseback.

Promoting safer horse practice, with all the welfare, behaviour, methodology implications, caveats and controversies to the horse world is a huge task and one I will leave to others.

In the meantime, I will be sure to keep my hard hat on whilst sticking my head above the parapet

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Luke Edwards — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 18:25:46 GMT

Jill,

I am not sure the riding analogy is entirely correct. I believe you if you say the risk of injury is as great on the ground- but people spend far more time with on the ground with horses than they do on their back so what we really need to know is something like the incidence of injuries per hour of ground work compared to the incidence of injuries per hour of riding. I'd be willing to stand corrected but I would guess that the Risk ratio (Odds ratio?- epidemiology is not my best skill) of riding is far greater.

Have a look at this picture, it is taken from your own website.

This young lady appears to be standing directly in front of the horse (would you stand in front of a loaded gun, even if no finger was on the trigger?). Her face is about six inches from the horse's head. I can see no lead rope on the horse and the lady seems to have her hands in her pockets. She has no control over the horse's head and therefore no control over the horse at all. If this horse flicks its head or nudges her for a polo now, she might end up with a broken jaw or nose. The hat would not stop this. If the blow was hard, the back of her head would smack against the wall behind her. You might say "Ah! good job she has her hat on then!" I would say this is true, but all she has to do is stand a foot to the left or a foot to the right and she would be out of the firing line, the risk would fall dramatically and she wouldn't need the hat.

This is the kind of sloppy, careless horsemanship that I have been talking about. I would never willing put myself in a vulnerable position like this .

The institution I teach at does not currently require undergraduates to were hard hats at all times, but expects them to be worn during certain procedures. (I did not make this policy, but am quite happy with it.) Twelve months ago I took a group of students to do some charity horse work. Another Vet school also attended and all their students wore hard hats from the second they got out of their vehicle. Within ten minutes of starting one of other the school's students had been kicked and had to sit out. By the end of the day another one was in the same situation. In between there seemed to be nothing but out off-control horses and near misses. By contrast my students carefully got with their work and by the end I was delighted to see no injuries, no out of control horses and not even a "far-miss". Their attitude was excellent and that's what made them safe.

I can see we are both passionate about safety with horses. I respectfully feel that by focussing on hard hats you are sought-of missing the point. If we were able to improve peoples horse handling skills (and more importantly their attitude ) we would reduce the risk not only of head injuries but all horse-related injuries, leading to more competent, happier owners, more in control of their own safety and ultimately happier, better-behaved horses, which are safer to work around. The whole thing then becomes a positive circle.

Regards,

Luke

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Jill Butterworth — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 22:21:01 GMT

Luke, I completely agree with almost all of your points. However, a rider, I accept the hat as part of the kit, and would not dream of not wearing one, even if sitting in the proverbial low risk lay-by. The statistical risk of injury on the ground is just the same, so it's no great leap of imagination to keep a helmet on for longer.

Head injuries are a one time occurrence, I won't stop riding in my hat, just because a horse is well schooled and I have good balance. A relatively low impact can cause a TBI, whereas you can sustain an almighty blow to the femur and and make a good recovery. An equine vet will statistically receive 7-8 injuries which will impede ability to work, which one of those just might be a head injury? I'm not for one moment suggesting that a helmet should replace safe working procedures. A building site is statistically safer than equine practice.

The argument in your post further persuades me that a helmet should be part of the kit, not part of the Risk Assessment: both horses and people do stupid things.

From my understanding, all (or most) of the undergraduates in the uk are wearing helmets, we are influencing a future generation. The last to comply was my alma mater, the RVC, and this was after one of the interns received a kick in the head from a Shetland...(Vet student, personal communication).

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Luke Edwards — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 20:53:32 GMT

Dr Lehner,

This is where the guns analogy comes in again. One of the rules of handling guns is "always point a gun, so that if it goes off, no-one gets hurt". The equine equivalent is "always point a horse so that if he kicks- off, no one gets hurt". I believe this is possible in most circumstances. It goes back to my comment about thinking of the consequences of your actions around horses. Plus I believe that whilst it might be difficult to predict if the horse will react badly, it is not difficult to predict how he will react - they have limited behaviour responses as I have mentioned.

I tell my students they need to - "work out what he might think about this, work out where he might go - and stand somewhere else."

Luke

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Chris Geddes — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 16:43:46 GMT

Charlotte Dujardin is one of few riders who wears a hat for dressage, and she's as famous as it gets and seemingly a really nice person, may be a good one to try?

Chris

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Laura Shaw — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:26:29 GMT

HI Bob,

I quite agree.

And while a good knowledge of horse behaviour and body language is essential, it is pretty hard to assess a horse's changing demeanor whilst locating nerves to block or staring at an ultrasound machine.

Unfortunately, we can't always rely on the handlers (clients) to be as responsive as we would like!

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

bob lehner — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 12:39:51 GMT

[quote user="Luke Edwards"]It is often said that horses are "dangerous and unpredictable". This is simply untrue. Horses are dangerous as you make them and very predictable[/quote]

The horse itself may be predictable - but the situation around it may not be. A sudden loud noise, overhead aircraft, even a paper bag blowing in the wind can set off an unexpected and possibly violent reaction which no-one could have predicted.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:41:46 GMT

Just to say, I saw Clive Ansell had deleted the content of his earlier post, so I deleted the post itself, then saw the next post became nonsensical, so deleted that, then the next post contained became partly nonsensical, so I had to edit it, and so on.

What I'm trying to say is that a few of you might notice your posts are not quite the same as first written. I only did that so the thread makes sense for future reference.

[quote user="Luke Edwards"]As someone who works in equine practice and is responsible for teaching veterinary students safe horse handling I have seen lot of horse related accidents and thought about this topic a great deal.[/quote]

Luke Edwards What a wonderfully eloquent, well-argued case. I don't have much contact with horses these days, but will certainly be using the 'handle like guns' comment on my young daughter.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Luke Edwards — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:26:36 GMT

I am going to politely but strongly disagree with the OP.

As someone who works in equine practice and is responsible for teaching veterinary students safe horse handling I have seen lot of horse related accidents and thought about this topic a great deal. In my personal view there are four main reasons why people get hurt around horses and a failure to use protective equipment is not one of them.

The four reasons are:

Failure to understand equine behaviour and body language
Careless complacent attitude when dealing with horses
Doing stupid things to their horses - by which I mean things that any right minded person could see might upset or hurt the horse and are often completely unnecessary.
Not considering the consequences of their actions

In essence the main reasons people get hurt around horses in this country is that the standard of horsemanship is appallingly low.

You could also say this about the level of common sense shown by the equine community. These factors are endemic in the leisure horse/amateur community but are not uncommon in the more professional parts of the industry.

It is often said that horses are "dangerous and unpredictable". This is simply untrue. Horses are dangerous as you make them and very predictable -they are stupid animals with a limited behaviour repertoire. Most of the responses shown by horses to adverse situations can be predicted - it is just that many horse handlers don't bother to think about the consequences of their actions and get caught out.

Horses should be handled like guns. - they vary from completely harmless to lethal depending on the situation and the intent of the person holding them. All of the injuries I have seen over the last few years would have been completely preventable with a little more care and forethought (and none of them would have been mitigated by a hard hat).

The wearing of hard hats all the time is overkill. A great deal of the time the risk of head injury is low. In HACCP terms the Hazard is high, but the Risk is low. Good handling skills and an attentive sensible attitude will reduce the risk even further. You would not put your seat belt on if you were parked in a layby for twenty minutes - the chance of a collision is very low. Most horse work is the same.

If the risk of head injury is increased then I have no problem with wearing a hard hat. The recent BEVA survey showed that head injuries were not the most common injury sustained by equine vets but endoscopy and dental work were associated with a higher risk of head injury. It would be perfectly reasonable to wear a hat in this type of situation. It is not a question of free will or "image" but a sensible look at the level of risk and methods of reducing the risk (which may or may not involve wearing a hat).

I could go on further, but essence, raising the standards of horsemanship, and changing the lazy, careless attitude to horse-handling that many equine owners seem to have, would do far more to prevent injury than the compulsory wearing of hard hats. It is what is in your head, not what is on your head that ultimately makes you safe around horses

I can see that this may not be the popular mainstream view here, but I would be quite happy to defend it.

Luke Edwards

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 08:55:43 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]Bike helmets legally required wearing in NSW, Australia - has been law for years, includes children, passengers on bikes, and children on tricycles. [/quote]Apparently when this law was introduced it resulted in a significant reduction in cycling. How true this is I'm not sure but it is one argument consistently put forward by the anti-helmet lobby in the UK.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

bevs2251 — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 00:23:19 GMT

Bike helmets legally required wearing in NSW, Australia - has been law for years, includes children, passengers on bikes, and children on tricycles.

When a student in final year, we had to do AI semen collection on stallions and bulls. Sexist, I know but girls were not allowed to collect from the stallions, only the bulls. Us girls sat on the railings watching the boys have a go at catching the stallion's penis (and laughing when they missed). They had to wear helmets. No helmets required for the bulls. I was successful on my first attempt !!

Before motorbike helmet wearing became mandatory also, my brother had an accident and caused quite significant scarring to his head. His pillion passenger had the helmet and suffered minimal injuries (grazes etc).

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:39:50 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]So lets finish this here everyone, because Jills post is going to get distracted and I've said quite enough, signing off[/quote]I think it is still relevant to the OP but just one more comment then before I go away:

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The fact is that I tour on a bike, I don't race. I potter along looking about me, away from the curb and the last time I fell of a bike was maybe 20 years ago (well I occasionally fall over because my feet get caught in the toe clips) I've never been clipped by a car and cycle in a manner where I stay mostly out of harms way.[/quote]I've never hit my head falling off riding gently either but you only have to do it once and get unlucky don't you? And that car that pulls out on you may be on your next ride. I feel naked without a helmet and modern helmets are so aerodynamic, lightweight and well ventilated that there is no argument in terms of discomfort.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:23:52 GMT

Deleted, giving this forum a bit of a break now as it just got too personal, I reacted and this is a public space.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:08:05 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Helmets are pretty useless in high impact crashes[/quote]That's where you miss the point Neil, most crashes are not high impact they are silly little wobbles and hitting your head on the road. That said I crashed bike racing at 35 mph went up on the air and vertically down on my head - my helmet was destroyed but the worst I suffered was a stiff neck. 18 months ago I was hit by a car, fractured my collarbone and several ribs, wrecked my bike but I was wearing a helmet so my head stayed intact. How many more examples so you want? I am surprised at you and you can take the criticism from me because I'm a fellow cyclist.

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:03:31 GMT

Deleted, and I'm going to stop posting for a while now, (the like wasn't for that)

RE: Famous Horsey Folk

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:02:17 GMT

I would say that I would wear a helmet on and around horses as I do cycling and skiing and that has saved me from at best serious if not a fatal injury on more than one occasion. I managed to fracture my shoulders despite wearing body armour, a back protector and helmet skiing - I hate to think what would have happened if I hadn't been. IMO anyone who doesn't is an idiot.