Human Euthanasia

RE: Human Euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:17:39 GMT

But if you give 5 stars it immediately jumps up a couple of stars. As the rating is just an average, the more people 'rank' the post with a star value, the less the occasional one-starrer matters.

I like the star system....it allows the "lurkers" to give an opinion on the post without posting themselves...what is wrong with that? Not everyone will feel that they have something to add.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Julie Innes — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 19:01:09 GMT

I'm actually also getting a bit hacked off at the one starrer. I honestly don't see why perfectly sensible posts are being one starred. It seems quite nasty and spiteful to me, and it puts me off the site somewhat. I don't mind seeing discussion where people disagree, because there is always value somewhere in the argument. But the one starring just seems cowardly and vindictive.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:39:38 GMT

The Penthrox inhaler is indicated for use by children and adults for the self-administration of methoxyflurane for analgesia in emergency and remote settings.^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5] A non-opioid alternative to morphine, this device is also easier to use than nitrous oxide.^[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthrox_inhaler

Works in seconds but doesn't last long, IMHE, so you have to keep sucking when the pain gets too bad.

Being a vet with some interest in anaesthesia and pain it was interesting that I had, apparently, full recognition of my situation but felt that i could walk with a totally dislocated ankle and with no pain.

I wonder whether, with someone with spinal metastices the relief would be as effective?

For the cowardly, logically compromised one starrer, this is a thread about really seriously ill people and way beyond cheap one-star shots!

RE: Human Euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:00:33 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

not suggesting pain relief should not be given - what I was referring to is that for some people being drugged out and unable to function as a human being would leave them in a worse position than being deceased (in their own image of their independence, self worth, burden to family/state and all the other emotions that affect our decisions) which was the topic.

I also do not want to end my days in nappies, drooling down my bib looking at visitors I don't recognise or understand.

[/quote]

Exactly the time for the penthrane whistle so that when visitors come the pain can be alleviated without mental and physical compromise??

RE: Human Euthanasia

Richard Carter — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:52:17 GMT

I also do not want to end my days in nappies, drooling down my bib looking at visitors I don't recognise or understand.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:44:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]there are other agents to try[/quote]

the ambos gave me a "penthrane whistle" [I think] so I was able to whistle [suck] in when the pain recurred.

Totally pain-free and apparently [to me] lucid so it may be worth suggesting in suitable circumstances.

Another stupid one star coming up for what can only be a sensible post in a sensible important thread.

Arlo, one star has got to be justified, not just anonymous, surely??

RE: Human Euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:15:28 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

problem with morphine and these other agents is that for some people the experience of not being lucid, comprehensible, or the actual trip itself is definitely not pleasant and to be literally drugged up for your last days/ weeks/ months is not a great image for the remaining family either.

[/quote]

Nah, much better to be in severe, constant, pain. Don't want to distress the reles......

Morphine was a horrible sensation for me; there are other agents to try but I guess morphine has the reputation for being the best?

RE: Human Euthanasia

Niall Taylor — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 09:12:40 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]to be literally drugged up for your last days/ weeks/ months is not a great image for the remaining family either.[/quote]

You're wrong, it is a great image when you consider the alternative. Like Arlo says, I know which option I'd chose for my loved ones and myself.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:21:10 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]problem with morphine and these other agents is that for some people the experience of not being lucid, comprehensible, or the actual trip itself is definitely not pleasant and to be literally drugged up for your last days/ weeks/ months is not a great image for the remaining family either.[/quote]

Richard Carter Wasn't me that one-starred (!) but my experience of being given quite high doses of morphine for some weeks as a young man was that it was, well, delicious. In fact, I'm very glad a dealer didn't come and offer me some more when I left hospital, because I am not sure what my answer would have been (I know of someone this happened to, and they picked the wrong answer).

I also don't remember it rendering me incomprehensible, but of course it's probably very different when given to an elderly person.

Still, one thing is for sure. As someone who has to watch their child seeming to suffer during weekly seizure clusters, I feel an almost physical wave of relief when I give her a big slug of valium and she slides into a deeply relaxed sleep, her little (or not so little any more) body rid of the seizures that look and sometimes sound as though they are causing her so much pain (although of course I know they are not, because she is unconscious).

That's the point, actually. My daughter only looks like she is suffering. To the best of my knowledge, she isn't. It would be so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so much worse if I thought she was. And I tell you what Richard, if that were the case, if it were between morphine and watching a member of the family writhing in pain, I would take the 'drugged up image' for the last days/weeks/months, EVERY time. I would far rather look upon a parent, for example, riding out their last weeks in peace than suffering.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Richard Carter — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 17:02:38 GMT

RE: Human Euthanasia

Derek Lyon — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 15:43:46 GMT

Hello. I decided to put my 2 penneth in about this thread plus a few other comments. I am probably nearly one of the oldest members of the site with Arlo only a couple of year older than our eldest son!

My wife's parents died at 61 and 60 years old. Father at 61 from heart attacked after having had angina for many years and mother from liver cancer as result of secondaries from original bowel cancer (diagnosed as IBS)

My parents died at 88...my mother after a long period in a nursing home and appeared to just waste away with death certificate indicating broncho-pneumonia even though doctor had not recently seen her!

My dad bless him died at 83 from liver cirrhosis even though he was tee total..unlike me!! He was taken ill in Dundee and admitted to Nine Wells Hospital where he was connected to every drip and central line possible as his limbs and abdomen swelled up with fluid. They tapped fluid off periodically and after one visit I pleaded with medics to take all drips out saying as Vet he should be put to sleep. They said they would continue to treat and monitor him....guess what the following day he was sat up and much improved. A week later he returned home to Wrexham and lived another 18 months. However when he finally became ill again his treatment was far from good and I had to plead for morphine drip. Hd did not have a pleasant death I can tell you. RIP all our parents and parents-in -law.

Interesting debate about rabbits/exotics etc. I know when I was working clients used to return to see me as other partners indicated they knew nothing about rabbits/rats/mice etc and to come back and see the Zoo vet! Clients were well not pleased asking surely these animals were not Zoo creatures!

I however had to do horse/cows etc when on duty at night or weekends and deal with them!

Gosh I miss work and still dream every night about it after having retired nearly 21 years ago.

Great forum Arlo but please may I ask members not to be rude with others if opinions differ...we all have our own ideas.....await the back lash now

Have a great day one and all. It's 3.45pm so wine o'clock!!

RE: Human Euthanasia

George Cooper — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 15:02:17 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]One of the key procedures to set in place is what used to termed a "Living Will" (cannot remember right now the current reference for this) whereby it is laid out unequivocally that, if there is no hope of being restored to a proper quality of life following an episode, then the medics are instructed not to resuscitate or revive the patient.[/quote]

George Cooper Thank you for that George. As a result of your post, I've just gone and made one at https://mydecisions.org.uk. Pretty straightforward online form, print, get witnessed and bob's your uncle.

Seriously hope it won't be needed, but reassured by the thought that it's there if it is.

[/quote]

Couple of points.

Make sure that this is lodged with your GP and that a note is taken in your clinical records. Also - have a few copies so that they can be produced if ever you are in hospital, as communications between various fragments of the NHS are not always of the best.

Might also be worth a quick squint at the Dignity in Dying website. I've found their take on all of this to be robust and comprehensive, though the site you used is probably up there too!

RE: Human Euthanasia

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 14:50:35 GMT

What did you do at work today, mummy?

I discussed Uncle Bob's end of life care scenario.

!!!!!

RE: Human Euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:53:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I mentioned making a living will in an earlier post[/quote]

Oops - sorry - I missed it earlier, thank you too!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]But the web page looks a bit informal to me. I wonder how it would stand up to legal challenge?[/quote]

Well, I got the link direct from here:

https://compassionindying.org.uk/making-decisions-and-planning-your-care/planning-ahead/advance-decision-living-will/making-advance-decision-living-will/

Which looked pretty sound to me.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:48:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I've just gone and made one at https://mydecisions.org.uk. Pretty straightforward online form, print, get witnessed and bob's your uncle.

Seriously hope it won't be needed, but reassured by the thought that it's there if it is.

[/quote]I mentioned making a living will in an earlier post so thanks for the link Arlo. But the web page looks a bit informal to me. I wonder how it would stand up to legal challenge?

RE: Human Euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:37:02 GMT

Seriously hope it won't be needed, but reassured by the thought that it's there if it is.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Judith Archbold — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 11:54:31 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I spent two and a half weeks in hospital and in the hospice with him till he died and although they were wonderful, caring and eased his pain it was a long drawn out decline. In contrast I carried my Labrador up onto the moors in the heather for a last sniff and a wobbly shamble about, spoiled her with treats and then a couple of days later when she declined I helped her on her on her way. She was the lucky one. [/quote]

I had the same experiences with my old labradors Clare. But as a result now have happy memories of them rather than the sad stories of painful, stressful end of lives that our colleagues have discussed on this forum.

I share empathy with all of you who have contributed to this forum: especially sad for those whose relatives have died in their 40s and 50s.

RE: Human Euthanasia

George Cooper — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 11:35:19 GMT

One of the impressive aspects Dignity in Dying, apart from their campaigning stance is that they are very strong in advising people to prepare for the worst way in advance of it being needed. One of the key procedures to set in place is what used to termed a "Living Will" (cannot remember right now the current reference for this) whereby it is laid out unequivocally that, if there is no hope of being restored to a proper quality of life following an episode, then the medics are instructed not to resuscitate or revive the patient.

As a system it is not without its flaws, and to my mind one of the biggest is that the patient or the relatives have to ensure that ANYONE dealing with the patient knows this, otherwise some well-meaning medic will instigate tests, treatments, investigations that are contrary to the patient's express wishes. Again there are a number of personal experiences and anecdotes that illustrate this. I'll refrain!!

RE: Human Euthanasia

George Cooper — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 11:25:07 GMT

Amidst all these heart rending stories of us vets watching relatives really suffer way beyond that which we would allow our patients to suffer - and my sympathy to each and every one - I have nothing but praise for the Hospice system.

When my wife, 2 years after her surgery and chemo for pancreatic cancer, was admitted to the local Hospice in Herefordshire the admission procedure was inspiring, conducted by the clinician in charge of her care and the various members of the nursing staff the were detailed to look after her. In essence their philosophy was that "we treat patients, not blood results or X-rays" which roughly translated, meant that if there was any pain, or more commonly "breakthrough" pain, it would be treated by the appropriate dose of opioid medication immediately, and if that caused constipation then that would be treated if and when it arose. In other words the necessary treatment was given, and if that then cause a further problem, it would be treated if it arose, as opposed to withholding treatment just in case it led to something else.

I recall one particular occasion when her anxiety levels rose despite me being with her and the nurses tending to her, and I made the comment that if she'd been a patient of mine I'd have anaesthetised her by now, and was met with the fact that the midazolam was right at that moment being prepared for injection! I'm also certain it helped that that most of the nursing staff had been clients of mine when I was in practice in the town - well at least it helped me!

RE: Human Euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:58:11 GMT

[quote user="claire godfrey"]That medical professionals must be dealing with the pressure of trying to do their best and worried about ending a life, that is ending anyway. That is a pressure I am very glad we do not have.[/quote]For all the stories on here about people suffering with terminal illness and not getting the care they needed, there are many cases where doctors do surreptitiously assist with end of life. While I'm sure a blind eye is turned to it as in the case of my father, the pressure must be then fearing they will be found guilty of that.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Claire Godfrey — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:49:22 GMT

I also lost my father-in-law at 52, after 18-24 months of knowing he was dying, unfortunately a bad back turned out to be kidney tumour which grew around his spinal cord and left him paralysed.

He tried to end his own life twice, by storing up his pain killers, his only means as obviously the paralysis rendered a lot impossible. He was truely terrible when he woke up, so angry at life.

The effects on those around him, in a situation with no hope of a positive outcome are still felt to this day, 14 years on. That no one could help him to leave this life peacefully is a horrid situation.

My father also reported that no one would give my grandfather any extra pain relief incase they finished him off, in his dying hours. Everyone was in agreement that no further treatment should be offered but surely pain relief should be a right. He was left thrashing around in pain, this really upsets me.

That medical professionals must be dealing with the pressure of trying to do their best and worried about ending a life, that is ending anyway. That is a pressure I am very glad we do not have.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:45:08 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]She can’t swallow properly now so has to have “thickened fluids.”[/quote]My father had difficulty swallowing in his latter years and my mother had to cut his food up into tiny bits or liquidise it. When she died suddenly of a coronary thrombosis my sister tried to care for him but he was too much of a burden. He was 95 and otherwise very fit for his age no suggestion of cancer or whatever but we didn't realise just how much my mother had had to care for him. We had to put him in a home, he was a cantankerous old bugger and they were very reluctant to help with his dietary need and he effectively gave up the will to live. In the end was hastened on his way with overdoses of opioids for 'bronchopneumonia'. I don't think he got the care he deserved from the home or the doctor and would normally have kicked up a fuss ( I did over my mother's death because she had very sub-optimal care for her problem but that's another story) but in the end it was a blessed relieve for him even though it was very suspicious of 'assisted dying' to get rid of him.

RE: Human Euthanasia

KMurphy — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:38:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]My dad was 52 when he got terminal cancer.[/quote]

Jeepers. Sobering thought. I'm 52 in July.

[/quote]

A reminder to enjoy life now and not wait until retirement to do the things you want to do. Not trying to play sad story top trumps but my mother was 48 when she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. You just never know what life is going to deal you. Make the most of it while you can!

RE: Human Euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 10:36:16 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]My dad was 52 when he got terminal cancer.[/quote]

Jeepers. Sobering thought. I'm 52 in July.

RE: Human Euthanasia

Richard Carter — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 09:50:11 GMT

I believe that this question should be taken completely out of the 'care/nhs/medical' system and control and given to a specialist unit of hospice/terminal care people. Far too many stories of overworked, too busy with the day job, rules preventing true caring (must fall on the floor - do NOT try to catch them) etc for the current system to be trusted with any sort of caring decision - i.e. right for the patient - not the children, the inheritance, the state, the legal issues in a hospital or of being a doctor or nurse and being contrary to your oath.

Anyone want to set up a dignitas here? Time for another career move...