The art of medicine

RE: The art of medicine

Iain Richards — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:35:52 GMT

Thanks for the correction, but your credibility is reduced with the use of, "gotta". I don't care if it is in the OED

RE: The art of medicine

J G Wray — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 11:49:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] we should all make an effort to go beyond sympathising and support and share our own positive experiences at the same time (ie, yes, what you are dealing with is shit, but here is the light I found at the end of my tunnel!)[/quote]

Why so unambitious? Why not take it further as some have suggested, even beyond empathy?

RE: The art of medicine

J G Wray — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 11:47:17 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]fora [/quote]

Hmmmmmmm. Fora as the plural of Roman squares maybe, but modern English it's gotta be forums.

RE: The art of medicine

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 10:57:03 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]I wonder whether depression, lack of self-confidence and so on is helped by pleas to facebook and the like or whether it just reinforces the negative feelings and even gets other people thinking the same way and magnifies the problem instead.[/quote]

Interesting thought ... I wonder.

I mean, I don't think that reading the negative experiences of others would convert someone from being broadly happy to being stressed/depressed/lacking in confidence. But I do think that maybe if I was slightly lacking in confidence, reading that others are too might magnify how I was feeling.

I wonder what everyone should take from that? I wonder whether, when we reply to people who are sharing negative feelings/experiences, we should all make an effort to go beyond sympathising and support and share our own positive experiences at the same time (ie, yes, what you are dealing with is shit, but here is the light I found at the end of my tunnel!)

[quote user="Iain Richards"]There was a plethora of positive replies. It was heartening to see as chats and fora tend toward the Misery Olympics at times.[/quote]

Made me laugh, but I know what you mean!

RE: The art of medicine

Iain Richards — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 10:07:47 GMT

A thread on FB asked who was happy in their job. There was a plethora of positive replies. It was heartening to see as chats and fora tend toward the Misery Olympics at times.

RE: The art of medicine

Niall Taylor — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 08:32:30 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]So why are modvets apparently so unhappy?[/quote]

Possibly because educationalists, counseling-types, 'coaching' organisations and others with a vested interest keep sending them surveys asking if they are stressed/depressed/lacking in confidence etc.

As has already been pointed out things were far from entirely rosy back in the day. I know a number of vets who took their own life or attempted to over the years, but without the echo chamber of social media it was less of a topic for discussion - it wasn't 'out there' in the same way it is now. Whether having it 'out there' in such an overt way is particularly helpful I remain to be convinced. I wonder whether depression, lack of self-confidence and so on is helped by pleas to facebook and the like or whether it just reinforces the negative feelings and even gets other people thinking the same way and magnifies the problem instead.

Niall

RE: The art of medicine

Niall Taylor — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 08:21:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Perhaps you would always find death easier to rationalise or come to terms with than a non vet, like your parents?

Or am I talking total tosh?

[/quote]

Likewise. When my mother was dying a couple of years ago I found myself in a hospital side-room having almost the same conversation with my father and sister and giving them almost exactly the same advice as I have done so often during end of life consultations with pet owners. Quite unnerving but in a strange way quite comforting too; it felt like I was 'doing my bit' for mum :-(

Niall

RE: The art of medicine

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:13:47 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Where is you evidence for this?; the Vet Futures survey put trust in vets at almost 95% https://www.vetfutures.org.uk/download/surveys-filebase/Public_trust_in_the_professions.pdf [/quote]

So why are modvets apparently so unhappy?

RE: The art of medicine

Julie Innes — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 20:12:40 GMT

Pretty much the same for me, Gillian. My mum had SLE and was ill for many of years, but her quality of life was terrible at the end. My dad thinks she could have had a lung transplant......

RE: The art of medicine

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:56:52 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Perhaps you would always find death easier to rationalise or come to terms with than a non vet, like your parents?

Or am I talking total tosh?

[/quote]

No, you're not! My Dad had been poorly for a considerable amount of time and his deterioration was slow but steady. In the end, things went bad very quickly. I saw it as an inevitable event, and fighting aggressively for his life that day was not going to 'get him better', it was just going to keep him alive a bit longer. I didn't see that as a good thing, whereas my mum did. I guess it boils down to the quality of life argument....there is a difference between existing and living, and that is something most vets will be discussing with their clients almost daily. My mum calls me 'hard hearted' for accepting death as a normal part of everyone's lives. I'm sure that is a result of my job....but I expect doctors are exactly the same.

RE: The art of medicine

Rob Loxley — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:31:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I think modvets while good, or better, at the "science" may not be as good at the "art" with consequent deterioration in appreciation and credibility by clients.[/quote]

Where is you evidence for this?; the Vet Futures survey put trust in vets at almost 95% https://www.vetfutures.org.uk/download/surveys-filebase/Public_trust_in_the_professions.pdf

RE: The art of medicine

David Mills — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 19:18:16 GMT

The Ancients had this pretty sown up I think, although some may disagree whether medical professionals possess techne or phronesis.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-metaphysics/

But Dr Wray knows this, I proffer. Charlatan SJ has little to offer in this regard; great works of reference do not a philosopher make.

RE: The art of medicine

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 18:04:18 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"] My dad is still angry and upset that he feels they "did nothing".[/quote]

"say something, do something, give something" [Tandy & Hughes 1970]

RE: The art of medicine

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:58:09 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

I think it is about communication. I've just had a conversation with my dad about the treatment my mum received in her last days in hospital. My dad is still angry and upset that he feels they "did nothing". At the time I understood that there was really nothing to be done. It seems as though if they had discussed the ins and outs of her care with my dad in a way I would discuss it with a client he would be less upset (15 years later)

My mum would have died, regardless. The art is in helping the client/patient/ family understand and feel involved and informed[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]My situation is exactly the same. My Dad died 10 years ago and my mum is convinced the doctors effectively euthanased him, as they did nothing and withdrew his drip when they understood he was dying, which he did within a couple of hours. I understand the reasons, and that there was nothing they could do, but the doctor's doctor's should have taken time to explain this.[/quote]

Going a bit off topic, but I really wonder about this. I mean you're saying you understood, and hypothesising that the reason your parents did not is because things were not properly explained etc.

I wonder if the reason is just that you have a completely different relationship with the concept of death than most other people. I mean, the cycle of life and death is so much shorter for your patients, and there's the constant reminder/awareness that suffering is a welfare issue, euthanasia is not. Perhaps therein lies the difference. Perhaps you would always find death easier to rationalise or come to terms with than a non vet, like your parents?

Or am I talking total tosh?

RE: The art of medicine

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:44:15 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

Substitute art for craft. There is an element of cunning in being a vet. We frequently have to discuss complex science with clients, often when they are anxious or just mildly concerned. We adopt anecdotes, invent stories, all to illustrate our communication. We'll use different tones of voice and adopt different attitudes depending on the client all to aid the consultation. All the world's a stage and all the people merely players. I'm always telling students that consulting is like acting, you need your props and your lines. That's the art.

[/quote]

Er, add "say something, do something, give something" and you'll win em all....

As it's sort of relevant:

Frank Carson was walking along the road with his dog when he met a friend.

Friend: "where are you going?"

Frank "I'm taking my dog to the vet to have him put down"

Friend "Is he mad?"

Frank "Well, he's not very pleased..."

RE: The art of medicine

Iain Richards — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:16:25 GMT

RE: The art of medicine

J G Wray — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:38:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

No the "art" and the "science" are totally and completely separate, as I have been on about for a long time.

Two great examples of "oral art" were the oral explanations of all the options available discussed in another thread which I'm certain were better than I could ever express.

[/quote]

Nah, that's just art-iculate.

So that's three meanings. How many different meanings are needed before the word becomes nonsense, pointless, valueless?

RE: The art of medicine

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:53:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]"Art" here is synomynous with "skill". There's nothing mysterious, ethereal, indefinable, deceptive, weird or crooked about it.[/quote]

No the "art" and the "science" are totally and completely separate, as I have been on about for a long time.

Two great examples of "oral art" were the oral explanations of all the options available discussed in another thread which I'm certain were better than I could ever express.

[It shouldn't happen to a vet pg 3]

The way these two explained the options, but at the same time, persuaded the owners to do what they thought was best, were masterly demos of the "art" of practice.

I think modvets while good, or better, at the "science" may not be as good at the "art" with consequent deterioration in appreciation and credibility by clients.

As Frank Carson used to say "it's the way I tell 'em"......

RE: The art of medicine

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:07:45 GMT

There need be no pejoric nuance in "artifice" or "cunning".

RE: The art of medicine

Niall Taylor — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:56:56 GMT

Artist (n) ... person skilled at something (Collins English dictionary).

Niall

RE: The art of medicine

J G Wray — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:24:41 GMT

So, Art = "skill" or "communication" - any advances?

It's still not Art or art in my book.

Jonson meant art as in artifice, cunning, clever devices intended to trick or deceive. If it does exist then surely it's nobler than that?

RE: The art of medicine

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 07:32:31 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]My dad is still angry and upset that he feels they "did nothing". At the time I understood that there was really nothing to be done.[/quote]

My situation is exactly the same. My Dad died 10 years ago and my mum is convinced the doctors effectively euthanased him, as they did nothing and withdrew his drip when they understood he was dying, which he did within a couple of hours. I understand the reasons, and that there was nothing they could do, but the doctor's doctor's should have taken time to explain this.

RE: The art of medicine

Julie Innes — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 22:01:16 GMT

My mum would have died, regardless. The art is in helping the client/patient/ family understand and feel involved and informec

RE: The art of medicine

J G Wray — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 17:47:20 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]vane[/quote]

Was that deliberate?

[/quote]

Got me and to stay on a Latin note, for the spelling mistake, mea culpa!

RE: The art of medicine

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 17:41:33 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]vane[/quote]

Was that deliberate?