How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:57:19 GMT

Oh...and incidentally, I don't condemn others for their work with zoo collections. I can see that there are a lot of good intentions out there and trying to preserve these animals for future generations is important. I just struggle to visit myself. I guess I see it the same way as with large marine mammals in collections. We used to think keeping orcas in tanks was ok...hopefully most of the world now sees that it really isn't. Obviously some species adapt better to a life in captivity than others, but can we judge adequately enough?

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 18:06:22 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Why is this a fashionable opinion these days?[/quote]

Nothing to do with fashion! I used to aspire to be a zoo vet and spent many happy weeks as an extern at Dallas Zoo and then Lincoln park zoo, Chicago. It is probably too big a subject to go into here, but the root of the issue is welfare of the individual vs conservation of the species. I do understand that loss of the wild is meaning we are heading towards extinction in many species. However, does that then allow us to put these animals in, what is, at the end of the day, a big cage, simply in order to breed from them? Can we sacrifice the individuals on the altar of 'conservation'? Can we really provide an environment that is adequate for a chimpanzee or a rhino? I would say no. (We struggle enough in the UK with a rabbit!!) IF these 'breeding establishments' were focused on the welfare of the animal, you would be very unlikely to see the animal at all, as they generally want to be hidden!

Add that to the fact that most of the species in zoos are not endangered at all. They are there primarily to entertain. The education argument is long gone...the quality and information that can be achieved by watching them on TV in their natural environment far surpasses anything you can get by watching them in a completely artificial environment. Thus these animals are there to entertain, and make money- albeit to subsidise the breeding of others. I also struggle with this.

So, in summary, I personally think that the commercial aspect of zoos is too powerful and if conservation is truly the aim, then this is best achieved away from the public and at grass roots.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:42:01 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Oh, and I won't visit zoos. [/quote]

Why is this a fashionable opinion these days? Backyard breeders won't be safeguarding critically endangered species any time soon! I appreciate a minority of zoos are suboptimal but these are unusual in this day and age and the concerns decrease as the zoo size (and professionalism) increase.

I think our antelope and rhino free-ranging over fields with a variety of heated shelters and feeding options have a much better quality of life than a pet rabbit!!!

Marie

P.S. absolutely agree with the rest of your post!

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:27:01 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Tell me. Would you rather have a charity do dogs and cats very well and spend their money effectively on them or waste it on exotics guesswork?[/quote]

I would rather they (and all other practices) did cats and dogs very well, and also provide basic care to all the other common pets such as budgies, rats and hamsters. (All universities include them in their syllabus these days.) These are not 'exotic' pets....how many of the vets on this forum owned a small fuzzy animal as a child? Indeed, they are a good introduction to the responsibility of owning a pet without the cost and long term responsibility of a dog or cat.

I do understand that people have a responsibility if buying something unusual to seek out a specialist vet..and pay for it. But when I was 11 and breeding hamsters, I certainly didn't think they were 'exotic pets' for whom I'd have to travel to find a vet!!!!

[quote user="David Mills"]It would be very interesting to see how many of your exotics consults end up in pts. [/quote]

Lots. But every one is an opportunity to improve the welfare of their next pet. And in many cases dissuade them from purchasing another animal that they can't adequately care for. If I had refused to see it, and it just died at home, would that help stop the exotic pet industry?

Oh, and I won't visit zoos.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:04:58 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]Arlo - would you consider also editing David's next post under the one you edited? It would make the thread so much nicer [/quote]

Actually, I did look at it yesterday and was just struggling a bit figuring out how to moderate in such a way that it keeps David's salient point, which was perfectly valid. It was easier to figure out how to do that with the preceding post.

Anyway, I have now edited that one too.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 13:03:26 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

The PDSA supports the keeping of pets whose welfare needs can be adequately met and ideally exceeded.

How many of your patients meet these criteria?

To be serious, do we know enough about the welfare needs of exotic pets to be able to confidently say they are met? No. Of course we don't.

Some of the most respected cow vets are those who recognise welfare limitations of the systems in which they are kept, but campaign for their improvement.

Problem is with the exotics peeps is that they could, and to my mind should, eradicate most of the welfare issues of their clients "pets" by be banning most species or at the very least licensing - or even campaign for it!

[/quote]

If your argument was followed through to a logical conclusion, the keeping of all animals as pets would have to be banned, surely?

As things are, the welfare needs of cats and dogs are not being met very well, both in the charity and private arms of the profession: how many patients do we see with obesity and untreated chronic dental disease on daily basis?; how many old and knackered animals with multiple pathologies are being kept alive when they probably shouldn't be?; We regularly see animals treated like toys or dolls, dressed in silly costumes, in handbags, rabbits wearing pampers nappies etc; as a profession we still facilitate the breeding of brachycephalic mutants, some barely able to breath and requiring endless surgeries to alter their conformation. The list goes on and on.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:48:07 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Hang on a mo' people have said far worse things about me so why the lecture on behaviour now?[/quote]

Have they?

It's all so subjective. You've been here long enough to know that the one thing I moderate for is people being sarcy, snarky (is that a word?), unkind, belittling, patronising, defamatory ... you get the picture. It's not appropriate for the written medium. It's a clear rule for this forum. It's not up for discussion.

In moderating, I have in the past asked myself: "Did they - the person on the receiving end - ask for it?". I have also taken into account, on occasion, my perception of whether someone is big enough to take it. With hindsight that was wrong.

Anyway, I certainly have moderated unkind remarks about you JGW. But perhaps, on occasion, I have allowed myself to be swayed by the 'did they ask for it' line of thinking. I don't remember. But if you think I have not been even-handed, complain! To me. Seriously, I do genuinely listen and try and improve all the time.

[quote user="J G Wray"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]In other words, it may not be your thing, but hey, live and let live. Nobody needs lecturing.[/quote][/quote]

I think this is the second time you've brought that one back, out of context, to haunt me!

Not sure I agree that explaining the rules / why I have edited a post is 'lecturing', but if it is, I reserve the right to lecture on the subject of forum rules.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

vs0u — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:23:25 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

WOW, when Abi Charlton asked me if she could post her survey in the forum, I suggested she try and frame it in a discussion that would keep the thread current and hopefully lots of people will do her survey.

Well, you've certainly pulled that one off Abi :)

Here's another plug for your survey - you deserve it!

https://goo.gl/forms/6olXfrojPMORF5Dl2

Very interesting debate and lots of different viewpoints.

BUT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]David...we'll agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our opinions but you really are unpleasant and unkind and I have no time for it.[/quote]

David Mills - it's hard to disagree with Gillian's point. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you must express it without being unpleasant.

I've edited your post to show what I mean:

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/6/p/26736/193961.aspx#193961

... see ... your point remains intact, just without the obnoxious personal remarks which really add nothing to the discussion.

[/quote]

Arlo - would you consider also editing David's next post under the one you edited? It would make the thread so much nicer

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

J G Wray — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:09:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

it's hard to disagree with Gillian's point. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you must express it without being unpleasant.[/quote]

Hang on a mo' people have said far worse things about me so why the lecture on behaviour now?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

In other words, it may not be your thing, but hey, live and let live. Nobody needs lecturing.[/quote]

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 19:35:14 GMT

Well, you've certainly pulled that one off Abi :)

Here's another plug for your survey - you deserve it!

https://goo.gl/forms/6olXfrojPMORF5Dl2

Very interesting debate and lots of different viewpoints.

BUT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]David...we'll agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our opinions but you really are unpleasant and unkind and I have no time for it.[/quote]

David Mills - it's hard to disagree with Gillian's point. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you must express it without being unpleasant.

I've edited your post to show what I mean:

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/6/p/26736/193961.aspx#193961

... see ... your point remains intact, just without the obnoxious personal remarks which really add nothing to the discussion.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 14:16:28 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A budgie is not an exotic[/quote]

What is an "exotic" pet anyway?

I wouldn't particularly class rabbits, guinea pigs, small rodents and small caged birds as "exotic", just small pets, which should be within the scope of first opinion practice, and which I am happy to see on a first opinion basis.

(more) exotic species; large birds, reptiles, other more unusual pets, I tend not to see.

My first boss had an interest in reptiles and used to see many. It seemed that many owners of exotics wanted gold standard service, instant diagnosis at minimal cost, no input or effort, and very quick to complain or not pay the bill if things went wrong.

[/quote]

Pretty much my view.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 13:22:11 GMT

David...we'll agree to disagree. We are all entitled to our opinions but you really are unpleasant and unkind and I have no time for it.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 13:07:29 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A budgie is not an exotic[/quote]

What is an "exotic" pet anyway?

(more) exotic species; large birds, reptiles, other more unusual pets, I tend not to see.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:51:56 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Should we really be seeing a client and charging them a fee in a professional capacity, if we know we do not have the necessary skills or knowledge to deal with it properly.

If I were to go and see a lawyer, I would expect them to know what they are doing, or say at the onset "it is outside my area of expertise, you would be better going elsewhere"

[/quote]

In 99% of cases the conversation goes

Client 'I've got a canary and its feathers have all fallen out'

Receptionist/vet 'We are happy to look at it, but we're not specialists and there is a practice at X that has a vet that deals with Canaries on a regular basis

Client 'When can I make an appointment'

As long as the client is aware and has been offered an alternative if the vet considers he/she isn't comfortable, that covers it doesn't it?

(Cue the definition of specialist)

Neil

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:45:33 GMT

A budgie is not an exotic. Most conditions are fairly easy for a normal GP to diagnose. Treatment is often more of a problem than the diagnosis which may be educated guesswork.

I will happily pass on more involved cases to someone more experienced and this would include most reptiles because I know they can do a better job. It will probably not cost them that much more.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 12:04:47 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]If I do see them the client will loose money (at least a consult fee plus any potential investigations) and time.[/quote]

That's the issue I have with it.

Should we really be seeing a client and charging them a fee in a professional capacity, if we know we do not have the necessary skills or knowledge to deal with it properly.

If I were to go and see a lawyer, I would expect them to know what they are doing, or say at the onset "it is outside my area of expertise, you would be better going elsewhere"

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 11:34:52 GMT

Gillian, if a SA vet is called out for a cow, most will very likely refer the client to a large animal vet. And I do just the same for exotics, the difference between a lizzard and a dog is much greater than between a dog and a cow.

If I do see them the client will loose money (at least a consult fee plus any potential investigations) and time. Most exotics are doing better if referred and attended to properly early rather than later.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Mark Rowland — Wed, 07 Mar 2018 08:11:19 GMT

At least you are there for the cat

And you concede that not every hit is a kill shot

Still humane?

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Edward Jones — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:52:06 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

A shot rabbit is arguably the most ethical meat available. A dog (or chicken) kept in a tiny cage much less so.

[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Is it? Shot in the leg and escapes down a hole?

[/quote]

And sometimes pentobarbital goes perivascular and the cat hits the ceiling. Or the rabbit just sits tight and doesn't tell you.

If you doubt the accuracy that is quite easily possible when shooting quarry, there's plenty of scope-cam videos available on youtube.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

David Mills — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:42:13 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Why do you think that it became acceptable, indeed the norm, for 'pet vets' to stop treating certain pets? [/quote]

Why are we not all still mixed practitioners?

Exotics aren't pets to my mind. [quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]. But does someone who purchases a budgie expect to travel 2 towns away to find a vet who will see it?[/quote]

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]PDSA wouldn't see any 'exotics' last time I asked. Apparently if you're poor you should get a dog rather than a budgie.[/quote]

Tell me. Would you rather have a charity do dogs and cats very well and spend their money effectively on them or waste it on exotics guesswork? We will, of course, provide emergency pts. It would be very interesting to see how many of your exotics consults end up in pts.

EDITOR'S NOTE: I HAVE DELETED PARTS OF THE ABOVE POST WHICH WERE UNKIND WITHOUT ADDING TO THE DEBATE.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

David Mills — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:32:43 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Your original answer was negative. I assume you are the neck extension policy[/quote]

Was I? Do elaborate.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Whats the PDSA position on Rabbits as pets?[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Whats the PDSA view???[/quote]

The PDSA supports the keeping of pets whose welfare needs can be adequately met and ideally exceeded.

How many of your patients meet these criteria?

To be serious, do we know enough about the welfare needs of exotic pets to be able to confidently say they are met? No. Of course we don't.

Some of the most respected cow vets are those who recognise welfare limitations of the systems in which they are kept, but campaign for their improvement.

EDITOR'S NOTE: I HAVE DELETED PARTS OF THE ABOVE POST WHICH WERE UNKIND WITHOUT ADDING TO THE DEBATE.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 20:11:10 GMT

Providing first aid and pain relief
3.7 The purpose of first aid and pain relief is to attend to the initial and essential welfare needs of the animal. The primary consideration of the veterinary surgeon should be to relieve the animal’s pain and suffering. In some cases, euthanasia may be appropriate.

3.8 A veterinary surgeon on duty should not unreasonably refuse to provide first aid and pain relief for any animal of a species treated by the practice during normal working hours.

3.9 A veterinary surgeon on duty should not unreasonably refuse to facilitate the provision of first aid and pain relief for all other species until such time as a more appropriate emergency veterinary service accepts responsibility for the animal.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Julie Innes — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 16:28:32 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

hahaha theres even an App to help you...

I have no shame

[/quote]

I almost mentioned that, Mark!!

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 16:22:36 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Out of interest, where do we stand with the RCVS/VDS if we agree to a accept a reptile consultation for example, but then something goes wrong because we have insufficient knowledge or experience,and are outside our normal area of competence?

[/quote]

Dont quote me Clive

But i think if you have offered referral and its been declined and you have made the client aware of any limitations you have you should be ok. I think it would stand better for you if you can show that you had sought advice from someone else I think.

[/quote]

I know and understand , but I am still a little uneasy about accepting a consultation, as a professional, where I do not have enough knowledge and would be outside my area of competence to carry it out fully and to a high standard. I would hope I would be better than no vet at all, but still uneasy about it.

I wouldn't take my Audi A3 to be repaired, by someone who admits they don't know much about them.

RE: How do you feel about seeing rabbits in practice?

Julian Earl — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 12:07:34 GMT

Re. the OP: with rabbits I usually feel sympathy for them: solitary, poor environment, stressed and often a poor diet. Also ~I often feel frustrated at treating the frequent facial abscesses. Of the various therapies, only aggressive treatment seems to have any benefit and of course they often recur!

Otherwise regarding exotics, we've been here before. I posted that I was a bit cross when someone from 35 miles away travelled to see us when their local vet refused to see a very young lizard with head tilt and circling. As far as I can see that vet was saying not only was he/she inexperienced with reptiles but also that he/she could not ead nor use the internet or a phone to contact someone more knowledgeable etc. and had also forgotten basic pathology. Head tilt and circling means a brain lesion, in a young animal most likely an abscess. That would have been a better starting point I feel? Sorry but I have always seen these exotics as additional interest in a day and have been willing to learn more.