Differences between certificate providers

RE: Differences between certificate providers

David Killick — Fri, 02 Mar 2018 17:02:27 GMT

An internship has not always been required for residency applicants, it depends upon how competitive it is. The programme directors do have to be able argue that the applicant has experience which is equivalent to an internship.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Lou Dawson — Fri, 02 Mar 2018 11:48:28 GMT

Yes I totally agree with you that internships are time consuming and low-paid...mind you residencies are the same! I’m just saying that if you have your heart set on a residency, be aware that a certificate might not be enough on its own to get you there.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

orik — Thu, 01 Mar 2018 22:16:51 GMT

A certificate is not a requirement for a residency but I believe it shows interest in progressing toward an advanced level of knowledge. Spending 2-3 years to enter a private and university rotating internship (without any guarantee) and receiving a low salary, it is not worth it in my opinion.

I do not know how interns could do a certificate if they do not have primary case responsibility.

However, because no one said that the CertAVP is bad, I think I will choose that one.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Lou Dawson — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:14:15 GMT

Just a thought - have you asked residency supervisors whether they would accept you with a certificate rather than internship? I know many will have internship as an absolute requirement for entry, and be inundated with applications from people with one or even two internships under their belt, so may be worth just checking and perhaps re-applying to some internships? I know of a few people who have managed to complete their CertAVP during their internship year too.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Frances Barr — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:31:28 GMT

To clarify, the difference between a full Masters and a postgraduate certificate is essentially study volume. Both are at Level 7 on the Framework for Higher Education qualifications in England, Wales and Northern Ireland - which indicates (at least in theory!) the academic level. A postgrad certificate is 60 credits (approximately 600 study hours) while a full Masters is 180 credits (1800 study hours). Confusion inevitably arises because Level 7 is often referrred to as Masters level. Full Masters degrees can be taught programmes or research programmes.

A postgraduate certificate is the requirement for the AP list if that is your aim. I have a vested interest which I declare here as I'm involved in the BSAVA PGCerts - but what I say to people who want to chat through options is ' decide what will work best for you'. Decide whether you prefer flexibility in the topics you study and how you choose to study, or whether you prefer a structured pathway of study. Decide how quickly you want to complete your chosen programme and how that fits in with other things in your life (work/family/outside interests). Decide whether you prefer an upfront all-inclusive cost, or separate costs for enrolling/online/attendance/exams. And so on.

In general I would say that the students who choose the BSAVA PGCert have done so because they prefer a structured programme of study and individual support. I've talked to many individuals who have enjoyed their Cert AVP too. Happy to chat further if you want to message me. No hard sell, not my style :-)

RE: Differences between certificate providers

orik — Wed, 21 Feb 2018 10:50:03 GMT

[quote user="jd2008"]To clarify, this would appear to place the Cert AVP at the level of a post-graduate certificate which itself sits within the Masters band (PGCert, PG Dip and Masters). Not the same thing at all.[/quote]

That's correct but masters are research-oriented so a certificate is a completely different thing and I don't see the reason to make them equivalent. Probably when we say that a certificate is a level 7-master qualification we should think that we master a specific area of interest instead of holding a MSc qualification.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Iain Richards — Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:30:20 GMT

[quote user="jd2008"]Confused....[/quote]

So am I. I thought Cert AVP was full Masters, looks like my research was at cycling proficiency test level. Thanks for clarifying.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

jd2008 — Wed, 21 Feb 2018 02:00:47 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

Having seen the modules at Liverpool and Edinburgh (RVC will be similar) I feel they are good and are largely overcoming the worries I had that Cert AVP was a wooly cop-out by RCVS. The academic level is masters.

[/quote]Hmm, this is debatable, the usual standard for a Masters is 180 credits (see https://warwick.ac.uk/services/aro/dar/quality/categories/courseapproval/faqs/creditamount/ for example) . From the RCVS: "The RCVS Certificate in Advanced Veterinary Practice (CertAVP) and the BSAVA Postgraduate Certificates (PGCertSAM and PGCertSAS) are academically equivalent. Each qualification is positioned at Level 7 (Masters) within the QAA Framework for Higher Education Qualifications in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and carries 60 academic credits at this level. The qualifications are therefore, by definition, academically equivalent."

To clarify, this would appear to place the Cert AVP at the level of a post-graduate certificate which itself sits within the Masters band (PGCert, PG Dip and Masters). Not the same thing at all.

Confused....

RE: Differences between certificate providers

grumpyoldman — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 23:07:20 GMT

I did the BSAVA route to CAVP, my wife did the Improve + Harper Adams route. The BSAVA was more rigorous the Harper Adams fluffy and irritating, with bad inconsistent marking requiring lots of soothing noises, discussion, rewriting of pointless essays, and gin and tonics. Not a great deal of difference in course material but BSAVA examinations much more rigorous and similar to old RCVS certificates with the casebooks. Which kind of makes you wonder why they binned them in the first place when they were so well regarded at home and abroad???.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

orik — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:46:59 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]

actually the admissions are based more on their impression of you at interview?[/quote]

Absolutely, but first I should be shortlisted for the interview and this is based on the CV.

I have looked today at the Liverpool and Edinburgh certificates and probably the first one is the best for me even if it is a bit more expensive than the RVC one.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Beats — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:08:02 GMT

[quote user="orik"]I am aware of only 3 providers that allow getting the status of advanced practitioner: RVC, BSAVA, Improve.[/quote]

For completeness, there may be a fourth (or fifth/sixth if you count Liverpool and Edinburgh also mentioned above):

http://www.ucd.ie/vetmed/study/graduateprogrammes/gradcertinsmallanimalmedicine/

you'd have to enquire to sam.cert@ucd.ie re where they're at with RCVS agreement for AP status, and whether they can offer a "professional skills" section to tick that off as well or whether you need to do separate.

One of the recent grads I work with polished this off in a year, but she is both very capable and very efficient (much more so than me anyway!).

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Stephanie Wellings — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:16:37 GMT

I am currently doing the Internal Medicine cert with Improve. I wanted to do BSAVA as my impression was it was more academically rigorous and had a better reputation, but there was a waiting list and it's a longer course, and it suited me better to have it more condensed.

In terms of content it is not a huge leap from the theory I learned at uni (I went to Cambridge though so I had a lot of theory the first time round!) and it definitely is not as complex as I anticipated 'certificate level' being.

It might be worth talking to some people doing a residency (or possibly the people doing the admissions) to ask how much weight they put on it. It might be a box ticking exercise that you have done some kind of additional learning other than general practice, and actually the admissions are based more on their impression of you at interview?

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Iain Richards — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:43:55 GMT

RE: Differences between certificate providers

David Mills — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:00:04 GMT

If you search the forum history, this topic comes up time and time again.

Personally, like Michael, I much preferred the RVC format as I am resistant to having my CPD and learning set out for me, and prefer to do it as and when - just coming towards the end of my 4th set of C modules with them. If structure is more for you, then consider CertAVP at Liverpool.

Reading through the Improve stuff a while ago, it does seem to involve less written work. I have never worked with anyone who has completed the BSAVA cert so no idea how it relates into practical advanced practice.

Pricing wise, the CertAVP is the cheapest, and then choose what CPD you may wish to do on top of it (much of which can be done for free or almost free, and most unis will give fairly heavily discounted CPD access).

RE: Differences between certificate providers

orik — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:41:23 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"] Unless, of course, your question was a carefully phrased way of saying, are any of these courses crap?[/quote]

You got me.

Basically BSAVA is a 3-5years certificate that costs around 10k and is comprehensive of taught courses (you need to go to BSAVA headquarters to attend to them) and the RVC one is a distance learning course that can be done in 2 years for less than 4k.

The difference in price and length might suggest that the CerAVP is less complete and so less prestigious. Personally I prefer it because it matches my needs perfectly but I wanted to be sure that is not commonly recognized as the "crap" one.

My colleagues recommend the BSAVA one because the programme is clearer than the RVC one and I believe because if it costs more, it is better....

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Iain Richards — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:20:23 GMT

If you want to go more academic, there are plenty of master's degrees to do. If you want to convert that to AP status then you need to do the A module at one of the places offering it (RVC, Liverpool) so there are other routes. Academic merit doesn't exist for these and to be honest, any academic merit should be your own. Unless, of course, your question was a carefully phrased way of saying, are any of these courses crap?

If you are doing this while working, find friends who've done it and have a good look at the way the course is structured and what support is there. The systems for Liverpool and Edinburgh are excellent, making using resources much easier.

RE: Differences between certificate providers

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 00:32:16 GMT

No one knows. I doubt there is a single vet who's done a cert with all 3 providers.

Personally I'd go with RVC and CertAVP route, but then I'm an RVC graduate and hold a CertAVP! I'm acknowledging my cognitive bias here. It's the system dreamt up by RCVS for advanced practitioner status, everything else is basically aligned.

I hear reasonable reports re the BSAVA certs, and they are more like the old certs. Sounds like a bit of a fudge to cover the A module/softer skills but I think they have that sorted now. Expensive from the people I've spoken to.

My only experience of Improve is the OV training of new vets and recertification and I'm not a happy bunny. I really get the impression I'm being milked as a cash cow. If I could never spend another penny with them I'd be quite happy. The quality of materials is poor, it really feels like they've made up some rubbish to justify their fee. I spent my money and know no more than I did before. Grumble, grumble, grumble.