Teaching animal CPR

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Chris Geddes — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 16:43:36 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]As far as I have been able to see, the masks are only the 'external' over-the-nose-and-mouth type of masks, rather than anything that goes into the oral cavity and over the glottis[/quote]

My misunderstanding, sorry.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I cannot see the emergency services doing much more than attempting to promote a clear airway.[/quote]

This is why I thought you were referring to a SGAD, as it could establish an airway and would be more relevant, but I did think it was quite a complex thing for a fireman to be doing :). It is good that they try to help pets, although as you point out that have other priorities.

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 14:55:47 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I cannot see the emergency services doing much more than attempting to promote a clear airway.[/quote]

Realistically, as well, they are there to protect human life as much as possible, not (sadly) dogs, cats or horses! (though they would want to try)

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Bob Russell — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:24:54 GMT

I remember Jim coming to our practice right at the beginning of his career and we helped them sort out the basic do's and don'ts of animal rescue.

Since then he has been involved in rescues large and small (including an escaped snake) so he really is the to go to person!

https://www.hantsfire.gov.uk/incidents-news-and-events/news/2016/leading-the-way-in-animal-rescue/

I cannot see the emergency services doing much more than attempting to promote a clear airway. They will never have the knowledge or legal status to intubate and I doubt there will be a budget for suitable masks let alone more specialist equipment.

Heat stroke first aid has to be something that can and should be taught widely.

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:02:15 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

did a talk for us on fire safety with regards to stables - some really simple but not immediately obvious things like making sure your gateways are wide enough for fire engines!!

Not what the OP was looking for, but I wrote the following after hearing him speak. Might be useful for any mixed practice vets etc.

http://e-venting.co.uk/2013/07/fire-reading-this-might-save-your-horses-life/

[/quote]

Great article Wren - good call on the gateways and cattle grid, definitely affects things if they have to run multiple hose reels together to reach the fire!

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:00:21 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]It's not for me to comment on whether it would be appropriate for fire crews to be using SGAD on veterinary patients at all, but if they were to be, then using a cat or rabbit v-gel would be far superior to using something designed for people, who have very different pharyngeal anatomy.[/quote]

Thanks Chris, some interesting points. As far as I have been able to see, the masks are only the 'external' over-the-nose-and-mouth type of masks, rather than anything that goes into the oral cavity and over the glottis. Limits the use for things like IPPV, but less risk of any trauma. I suspect most animals being pulled out of house fires that aren't breathing by themselves are unlikely to survive even if given prompt veterinary treatment!

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Chris Geddes — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:45:22 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"] [quote user="Mark Rowland"]I would get a few of those and get a rough idea of how to place them. [/quote] Luckily all the Devon and Somerset crews have been gifted some masks through a charity. I'll try and sneak over to the fire station at some point and get a look at them.[/quote]

I just had a chat with Dr Nasir, inventor of the i-gel Supraglottic Airway Device for people (www.i-gel.com) and v-gel SGAD for cats and rabbits (www.v-gel.com) . The i-gel is not the only SGAD for people, but the v-gel is the only device designed for animals. I believe most ambulance crews in the UK use i-gel, I'm not sure about fire crews.

It's not for me to comment on whether it would be appropriate for fire crews to be using SGAD on veterinary patients at all, but if they were to be, then using a cat or rabbit v-gel would be far superior to using something designed for people, who have very different pharyngeal anatomy.

As for dogs - Dr Nasir suggests that using a human product would be better than nothing, but we simply don't know how useful they would be. A dog v-gel is in development, but it is not commercially available at the moment.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions at all Lucy.

Chris

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:16:04 GMT

Excellent article Wren, I’ve bookmarked it!

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Wren — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:56:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Worthwhile having a chat with Jim Green at BARTA. He was my next door neighbour and is a founder member of the large animal rescue unit at Hampshire Fire and Rescue.[/quote]

He's great - did a talk for us on fire safety with regards to stables - some really simple but not immediately obvious things like making sure your gateways are wide enough for fire engines!!

Not what the OP was looking for, but I wrote the following after hearing him speak. Might be useful for any mixed practice vets etc.

http://e-venting.co.uk/2013/07/fire-reading-this-might-save-your-horses-life/

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Bob Russell — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:43:59 GMT

Worthwhile having a chat with Jim Green at BARTA. He was my next door neighbour and is a founder member of the large animal rescue unit at Hampshire Fire and Rescue.

Most of his stuff is digging pony's out of ditches or horses out of swimming pools but he does deal with all sorts of animal rescue situations.

He is a very nice and knowledgeable chap and I am sure would have some ideas. He might end up asking more questions than answers but he is very on the ball and coordinates with other rescues.

Tell him I suggested you speak to him (Bob Russell, Willowbrook!). What is good for one rescue force can be passed on to others!

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Lucy Fleming — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:50:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I'd be inclined to concentrate on:

Recognising life extinct (pulses, precordial beat)

O2 therapy and assisted ventillation

Handling of distressed dogs (things like improvised muzzles)

[/quote]

I think you're right... making sure they don't get savaged and not wasting time trying to bring back animals that are already beyond help definitely a main focus. This lot pulled three dogs out of a house fire this week which I think they know were beyond saving anyway but it's prompted a bit of a think. [quote user="Mark Rowland"]I would get a few of those and get a rough idea of how to place them. [/quote] Luckily all the Devon and Somerset crews have been gifted some masks through a charity. I'll try and sneak over to the fire station at some point and get a look at them.[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Treatment of burns ? irrigating eyes[/quote]Good idea! They often don't have enough people on a shout to manage more than the very basics, but nice to have the knowledge anyway.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] I know a couple of retained firemen[/quote] Me too. One of them is in my house all the time and won't leave. He says we are married or something?? (Explains how I got roped into this, anyway!)

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 00:00:01 GMT

Treatment of burns ? irrigating eyes

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Mark Rowland — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:37:36 GMT

Ambulances use laryngeal masks for people.

I would get a few of those and get a rough idea of how to place them.

WIve used them in rabbits (human paediatric size 1)

cheap to buy online but you need an idea on placement.

Ive got a paper somewhere pm me if interested

goodluck

RE: Teaching animal CPR

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:31:52 GMT

I don't know how fire crews deliver CPR to people, especially rescue breaths, but a pet mask can be connected to a bag valve mask and an O2 supply to give breaths. Ideally have someone pinch neck firmly to stop over inflation of the stomach. I wouldn't worry too much about chest compreassions because by that point its dead.

I'd be inclined to concentrate on:

Recognising life extinct (pulses, precordial beat)

O2 therapy and assisted ventillation

Handling of distressed dogs (things like improvised muzzles)

If you have a friendly dog to take along that would be good. If you can find out what kit they have in advance I can make further suggestions (or find out as I know a couple of retained firemen).