Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:53:23 GMT

I would recommend A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry. Very good read.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:46:52 GMT

Haha I considered the spelling and grammatical error. Felt they were both appropriate to express myself. I am pretty sure Angela would have an insight !

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:13:07 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"] Little boys vieing with words instead of slings.[/quote]

Jaw-jaw is better than war-war.......

"vieing"? [quote user="Christina Smith"] Lets ask Angela Merkel.[/quote]

Missing apostrophe there... Am I missing something? Does Frau Merkel have some insight on the matter?

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:45:38 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]As an aside the bulk of people that go hunting are ordinary people[/quote]

To be honest, my comment wasn't meant to indicate any particular class, but rather just character. However, I've just looked up 'ponce' and it was an inappropriate adjective. Change to 'idiot'

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:32:46 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Sometimes no control is a lot worse than active control.[/quote]

But there is a difference between welfare concious control/culling, and a group of half cut ponces in red jackets bouncing around the countryside randomly attacking the wildlife.

I'm happy to see animals culled to protect welfare. Dead animals don't suffer. I just don't see how anyone has fun killing animals.

[/quote]

I am not, nor ever have been a hunter. I find the whole thing rather distasteful but I believe that in some situations hunting may actually benefit the target species.

When the New Forest Buckhounds were hunting they had the effect of keeping deer moving around the Forest. They did not settle in one place to just eat and breed as they do now. The hunt rarely caught a deer but when they did it was not pretty.

Culling deer is limited and there are just so many that they cause damage.

If you are going to stop something that has been going on for centuries it is important to make sure that equivalent measures are in place to maintain a balance. This has not happened around here and fox and deer numbers have gone though the roof.

As an aside the bulk of people that go hunting are ordinary people with very few half cut ponces in red jackets. Too much watching telly?

But I have no desire to chase any animal around the countryside hence my firmly on the fence position.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:24:23 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Not from my house. Quite possibly from the end of the pier.[/quote]

On the subject of piers, a veterinary surgeon wrote this the other day:

"..Poor retention, particularly amongst vets who are 8 years post graduation, is a recognised problem within the profession and in common with many of my piers..."

What is the world coming to?

and further to the subject of piers there is this that my father got from his Skipper when he was in the RN (HMS Reclaim)

"Wray, that piece of wood you keep cracking your head on is mahogany, which is a very hard wood used in piles for piers and I don't mean haemorrhoids for Lords"

[/quote] Little boys vieing with words instead of slings. What is the world coming to ? Lets ask Angela Merkel.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

J G Wray — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:56:38 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Not from my house. Quite possibly from the end of the pier.[/quote]

On the subject of piers, a veterinary surgeon wrote this the other day:

"..Poor retention, particularly amongst vets who are 8 years post graduation, is a recognised problem within the profession and in common with many of my piers..."

What is the world coming to?

and further to the subject of piers there is this that my father got from his Skipper when he was in the RN (HMS Reclaim)

"Wray, that piece of wood you keep cracking your head on is mahogany, which is a very hard wood used in piles for piers and I don't mean haemorrhoids for Lords"

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:38:29 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Sometimes no control is a lot worse than active control.[/quote]

But there is a difference between welfare concious control/culling, and a group of half cut ponces in red jackets bouncing around the countryside randomly attacking the wildlife.

I'm happy to see animals culled to protect welfare. Dead animals don't suffer. I just don't see how anyone has fun killing animals.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:45:13 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]I dare say you could have heaved a stone across the Menai when you were younger, with a sling.[/quote]

Not from my house. Quite possibly from the end of the pier. [quote user="J G Wray"]Then there's the catapult, or ballista......[/quote] You just can't get the square elastic nowadays.... only the pale tubular stuff. I'm afraid I prefer 60 grains of Swiss No. 3.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

J G Wray — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:18:21 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Hmm. Your stone-throwing ability must be greater than mine. Three-inch mortar perhaps.[/quote]

There is a Biblical precedent for stone throwing with a sling, which the Archbishop would know and I reckon could work. The stones go a lot farther. Slings could also be used for grenades, real ones rather than metaphorical as from Dr Carey, as in the Spanish Civil War. Slings are still in use today for use against Israeli anti riot police. I dare say you could have heaved a stone across the Menai when you were younger, with a sling.

Then there's the catapult, or ballista......

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:14:05 GMT

Urban foxes are pests and intervention should be restricted to euthanasia on welfare grounds.

In the past I have found many 'hunting' landowners were very aware of the fox population on their land. They were also often proactive in culling the unhealthy whilst protecting the healthy. Attitudes tended to change a bit at lambing time.

Sometimes no control is a lot worse than active control.

In the New Forest deer numbers have risen astronomically since the Buck Hounds were disbanded. They are now a major, if picturesque, pain in the ar+e!

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:01:38 GMT

Why do I keep double posting ? It's embarassing. I can't leave the page until I do. Arlo ?

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:00:27 GMT

And an awful PR exercise from Harmsworth on TV. A vixen trapped and given a caesarian section. Everything died.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:57:33 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"] Lambeth Palace has the second largest private garden in Central London and is a stone's throw from Parliament and...... the RCVS.[/quote]

Hmm. Your stone-throwing ability must be greater than mine. Three-inch mortar perhaps.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

J G Wray — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:41:20 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]Apparently there are about 150,000 urban foxes now[/quote]

Imagine if we got rabies. Just how pet friendly would the politicians be then?

Anecdote time - I remember Jerry Davies shaking his head because he'd just had to talk to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Carey at the time, who was concerned about the Lambeth Palace fox, his fox, getting veterinary attention if he needed it, in Central London. Lambeth Palace has the second largest private garden in Central London and is a stone's throw from Parliament and...... the RCVS. Urban foxes are not just of political but religious concern as well.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Julie Innes — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:41:01 GMT

Surely if they want to strike a blow to improve (pet) animal welfare they should look at making it more difficult for feckless eejits to buy (or even adopt from abroad)a completely unsuitable pet on a whim from the nearest website. That would improve the lives of literally millions of animals overnight!

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:32:09 GMT

Apparently there are about 150,000 urban foxes now

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Chris Geddes — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:32:10 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] is it true to say that anyone who is pro hunting is by definition against animal welfare? [/quote]

I'm not sure anyone is against animal welfare. We just have different views on the importance of it. As to whether someone who supports fox hunting can possibly have high regard for animal welfare - well, that's quite a controversial topic...!

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]except to the extent that townies are unaccustomed to nature and death and want Mr Foxy-Woxy to be able to go for tea with Mr Badger-Wadger[/quote]

It's curious that people are seen as those who want all foxes and badgers dead and those who want them all to be cuddled. I am not a townie, but I am not so arrogant as to suggest that the opinion of someone who is has an opinion less valid than my own. I don't know anything about catholicism, but I'm against molestation of children by catholic priests.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]But actually, does hunting help keep fox numbers down? [/quote]

No. Some might say that fox hunting is "good" as it bring benefits to the countryside, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the control of foxes.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] Do more animals suffer if fox numbers go up?[/quote]

Yes

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Do foxes suffer more when hunted, as opposed to other methods of culling? [/quote]

Yes

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Anyway, fox-hunting is of course only one small part of animal welfare, and it just strikes me that there's been a significant increase in announcements concerning animal welfare policy over the last two years. Until now, largely from the Tories. [/quote]

Possibly, but if you want to be seen as the party of animal welfare, it's very curious to want to repeal a ban that is in place for the benefit of animal welfare and that the vast majority of the country are in favour of.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Clive Ansell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:31:03 GMT

I follow the "if you can't afford a vet , don't have a pet" school of thought. I do however feel there should sometimes be help available for those who already own a pet and genuinely meet hard times or life changing events through no fault of their own.

We already have the PDSA and RSPSA to encourage irresponsible pet ownership, and the reckless and feckless to own pets, and offer free or heavily subsidised treatment. I've lost count of the number of folk on benefits I've seen in charity clinics, rolling in with puppies that cost in excess of £2000!

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Chris Geddes — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:23:41 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Until now, largely from the Tories. ...and its nothing to do with any belief in animal welfare just looking for vote winners.[/quote]

Spot on, Arlo,

[/quote]

I'm not sure of the logic of this. Why do you think that politicians only care about winning votes? They are not machines. They are people. Some of them care about animal welfare, others don't. Those that do want to push it up the political agenda because they care about animal welfare. Some may want to push it up the agenda because it's a vote winner. But it's curious that doing something as a "vote winner" is seen as somehow wrong. They are there to represent us, so surely "vote winners" are by definition the right thing to do!

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Julian Earl — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:37:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Until now, largely from the Tories. ...and its nothing to do with any belief in animal welfare just looking for vote winners.[/quote]

Spot on, Arlo, although in fairness, the Tories have recently announced plans to protect crustacean welfare, eg by stopping the boiling of them alive. Something that I suggested at a DEFRA/MAFF welfare meeting in 1998 and was scorned. Saying The "benefit of the doubt carried no weight". Anyway, I think that they do talk about welfare so arguably keeping it on the table and public mind?

As for live exports mentioned, perhaps people do not believe or accept all of the evidence from Toby Knowles et al at Bristol indicating that sheep tolerate long distance transport well, overall if done well eg ventilation etc. Their outcome at the other end might be questionable I suppose?

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:53:38 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

cos it's my right to have three rottweilers, 2 staffies and a small child in a one bed flat....

[/quote]Only one child - you live in a posh area then!

[quote user="GrooveJet"]..it became clear that this is an absolute minefield because there is no simple way to discern between those who cannot pay and those who will not pay. [/quote]Having worked in RSPCA clinics in the past and now neutering cats under the C4 scheme it doesn't surprise me there are so many freeloaders but generally you can tell from their address, the car they rock up in and their clothing.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]it just strikes me that there's been a significant increase in announcements concerning animal welfare policy over the last two years. Until now, largely from the Tories. [/quote]...and its nothing to do with any belief in animal welfare just looking for vote winners.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:50:23 GMT

Repealing the fox hunting ban was just one of the absolutely bonkers ideas that came out of the Conservative manifesto. It was daft enough a document that a bit of me thinks there was an element of derailing going on.

I have always been firmly on the fence when it comes to fox hunting. I have never had an interest in hunting but at least in hunting territory foxes were managed, arguably to the benefit of overall fox welfare. Now too many to be sustainable.

Live exports should be banned except for breeding stock.

We are all probably singing from the same song sheet when it comes to the puppy trade!"

Offering or making cheap vet care available to all would break the available bank and it is not a right (as stated) to have numerous pets, children, SKY and a Range Rover to take the family down to the local PDSA clinic.

Cheap words to get votes. A bit like "we will wipe out you student loans if you vote for me!"

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]Really? Tories wanting to repeal hunting ban and May in particular saying "personally I've always been in favour of fox hunting"? Ok they backtracked, but doesn't suggest they're interested in being the party of animal welfare.[/quote]

I confess I am not particularly au fait with the welfare issues surrounding fox-hunting, but is it true to say that anyone who is pro hunting is by definition against animal welfare? I thought the arguments for or against are just not that clear cut - except to the extent that townies are unaccustomed to nature and death and want Mr Foxy-Woxy to be able to go for tea with Mr Badger-Wadger.

But actually, does hunting help keep fox numbers down? Do more animals suffer if fox numbers go up? Do foxes suffer more when hunted, as opposed to other methods of culling?

Anyway, fox-hunting is of course only one small part of animal welfare, and it just strikes me that there's been a significant increase in announcements concerning animal welfare policy over the last two years. Until now, largely from the Tories.

RE: Labour's plans to expand 'affordable vet care'

Chris Geddes — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:19:19 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Yes, but the competition to be seen to be the strongest on animal welfare has really hotted up in the last couple of years in particular, I think. [/quote]

Really? Tories wanting to repeal hunting ban and May in particular saying "personally I've always been in favour of fox hunting"? Ok they backtracked, but doesn't suggest they're interested in being the party of animal welfare.