Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:17:26 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

And if the transfer of ownership is done prior to movement? Easy to e-mail forms back and forth.

[/quote]

But surely the movement of the dog is part of the transfer of ownership? Money one way, goods the other, just like buying something from amazon (other online retailers are available).

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 13:02:15 GMT

And if the transfer of ownership is done prior to movement? Easy to e-mail forms back and forth.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Thomas Johnson — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 10:57:15 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Are these dogs actually eligible to enter the UK on just a Pet Passport? [/quote]

Yes, they are.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]A few years ago I heard a murmuring from DEFRA about the fact that these animals aren't actually pets at the time of import and therefore might not be eligible to come in on a Pet Passport.[/quote]

Every pet coming in the UK on a pet Passport must be accompanied by the pet's owner. If the owner is not there then the pet can enter the UK with a signed letter giving right of transport to somebody else (driver, etc). If the adoption papers are signed when the dog is still in rescue then the UK owner becomes the legal owner prior to the pet entering the UK. Loophole.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Transporting dogs across Europe for money is a commercial activity.[/quote]

Not really as they are not being sold. There is an adoption fee (same thing if you ask me) but legally they are not being sold.

[/quote]

My understanding is that these dogs are not able to legally enter the UK on a Pet Passport as their movement is for the purpose of change of ownership:

"The Pet Travel Scheme can only be used for pet dogs, cats and ferrets that are moved for non-commercial reasons with no intention for sale or transfer of ownership."

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/674478/pets-checks-pt44.pdf (page 16)

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 09:57:51 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

Further more most of these transports are taking the ferry not the Eurotunnel. The ferry pet checks are a bit of a joke, anyone could have 10 dogs in a van and declare 5. Even more, the pets are scanned by the driver without anyone seeing the dog. Literally anyone could have a handful of microchips in a bag and scan them individually.

[/quote]

If they're declaring any at all - you're too generous, Dinu :)

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 04 Mar 2018 09:20:37 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Are these dogs actually eligible to enter the UK on just a Pet Passport? [/quote]

Yes, they are.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Transporting dogs across Europe for money is a commercial activity.[/quote]

Not really as they are not being sold. There is an adoption fee (same thing if you ask me) but legally they are not being sold.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 02 Mar 2018 12:01:46 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

Are these dogs actually eligible to enter the UK on just a Pet Passport? A few years ago I heard a murmuring from DEFRA about the fact that these animals aren't actually pets at the time of import and therefore might not be eligible to come in on a Pet Passport. I haven't heard anything further about it though.

The guidance notes specifically state that it's only for non-commercial movement. Transporting dogs across Europe for money is a commercial activity.

[/quote]

I think people get away with it by transporting one or 2 dogs at a time, any more than 5 (IIRC) requires an export certificate instead.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Miriam Lodewyks — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:52:49 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]You'd basically be amputating half a dog [/quote]

And the owner needs a brain transplant.

[/quote]

That actually made me laugh out loud.

And I also agree... NOT ethical.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Edward Jones — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:39:11 GMT

The guidance notes specifically state that it's only for non-commercial movement. Transporting dogs across Europe for money is a commercial activity.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Christina Smith — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:15:12 GMT

Just wait for the influx of Chernobyl feral pets. The Ukrainians have just announced a major cull. Been reported in the mainstream press in the UK. Why ?

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:04:45 GMT

[quote user="nikki"]It's now had the tendons cut on the front leg by the supervet [/quote]...I presume we're talking about 'Knowall'? Perhaps someone should report him for unethical practice - a lot of his other work is pushing those boundaries as well already.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Clive Ansell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:39:43 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]but there is no reason to lie to the owners. Over the years I've taken off a number of legs and I'm struggling to think of any complications. Bilateral leg amputation is not specialist surgery, it's bread and butter general practice Sx. I've had more complications with tail amputations (used to try and preserve too much tail, I've learnt).[/quote]

All true enough.

No one has lied to this client.

This practice has no on site care OOH and in this case, given we have a particularly pedantic and difficult client, as well as declining on ethical grounds I would decline on the basis that adequate post op care may not be able to be given on site. Even though it is "bread and butter" surgery, it would still be major surgery to amputate 2 hind limbs and a tail in a paraplegic patient, with the possibility of a prolonged recovery and complications. I would not the situation arising where I would have to take responsibility for transport to and from an OOH centre. It would be like landing halfway down the runway.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

nikki — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:51:18 GMT

Had a "rescue" from Romania earlier this year with only one fully working leg. Its left foreleg had some kind of contracture going on meaning it couldn't use this one at all and both its hindlimbs had severe deformities as well. I couldn't see why the poor dog had been rehomed at all rather than euthanased. It's now had the tendons cut on the front leg by the supervet so it can just about use it but nothing can be done for the back ones. It's still on painkillers every day. What sort of life does it have? Makes me angry. Euthanasia is not a bad thing if it stops an animal suffering. Rescue is not the word I would choose.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:15:07 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]How about 'No, because you can't provide the aftercare for such a case and that it would need to go to a specialist centre'.[/quote]

I agree on the ethical points (I've already said I wouldn't do it), but there is no reason to lie to the owners. Over the years I've taken off a number of legs and I'm struggling to think of any complications. Bilateral leg amputation is not specialist surgery, it's bread and butter general practice Sx. I've had more complications with tail amputations (used to try and preserve too much tail, I've learnt).

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 15:56:15 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]How about 'No, because you can't provide the aftercare for such a case and that it would need to go to a specialist centre'.[/quote]

Yes indeed. I have refused the procedure, but did advise if it were to go ahead (with someone else, not me) it would have to be in a practice that has on site 24 hour cover. I would not want to be responsible for transporting this case to/from OOH clinics in the event of any post op problems.

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]

Could you speak to one of the practice owners who would concur that you should not proceed?

Or call the RCVS for clarification as unethical, back up?

[/quote]

No need. I am not being arrogant, but I have already decided it is unethical and will not be doing it. I don't need the practice owner or the RCVS for clarification on this, and regardless of their opinions I still would not be doing it.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 15:38:32 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Of ovaries, I hope you mean [/quote]

Yes, of course, what else?

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 15:19:46 GMT

How about 'No, because you can't provide the aftercare for such a case and that it would need to go to a specialist centre'.

But then again, someone might actually do it....

Could you speak to one of the practice owners who would concur that you should not proceed?

Or call the RCVS for clarification as unethical, back up?

NB Did anyone hear Radio 4 last night, Christian Barnard transplanted a second head onto a dog during his experimental surgeries...it survived for a short while...

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:29:39 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I admire them for growing a pair,[/quote]

Of ovaries, I hope you mean

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Clive Ansell — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:43:00 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]2 RVN's within the practice have already refused to have any involvement, in terms of anaesthesia or aftercare, with the case if surgery were to go ahead. Can they do that? [/quote]

They are as responsible for their personal ethical boundaries as anyone else. Where they stand on employment legislation I am unsure.

[/quote]

Sorry, my post wasn't clear and I actually meant from an employment viewpoint rather than an ethical one. Their boss is a bit of a taskmaster to say the least.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Why couldn't they?[/quote]

They could and they should. In fact I admire them for growing a pair, and not being afraid to use them!

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 23:34:07 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]There were some reports recently of some dogs being deliberately injured before being offered for "rescue". [/quote]

Unfortunately there are so many damaged street dogs that there really isn't any need for this. Also unfortunately a lot of people running rescues, in Romania at least, are clueless and could do with a course in animal welfare.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:36:55 GMT

Good on them. They are now registered professionals and have to behave ethically.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:09:49 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]There were some reports recently of some dogs being deliberately injured before being offered for "rescue". [/quote]

I wonder what the rehoming fee + travel expenses paid by the client were. And whether they were encouraged to make a donation for veterinary expenses that the rescue group claim were incurred by the case before the dog was rehomed. Cynic in me wonders whether David is right and if there is a nice profit to be made selling crippled dogs to right-on Brits. Or crippling dogs to sell. Like that hideous bit with the orphans in Slumdog Millionaire, but with dogs not children.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

David Mills — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 20:18:02 GMT

There were some reports recently of some dogs being deliberately injured before being offered for "rescue".

There must be some vets seeing these animals if it's that common an issue.

Obviously to the OP it's a no. It would be interesting to know if anyone ends up doing it.

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:44:16 GMT

Arlo. FFS get the press involved !!

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Niall Taylor — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope. This dog needs to be PTS, poor thing. [/quote]

^ This

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]It almost seems the latest middle class trendy thing to do at the moment; rescue an injured dog from Eastern Europe, and say look at me aren't I wonderful, and expect us to offer discounted treatment to the poor thing. [/quote]

... and this ^

These people are, quite frankly, uncaring, self-centred morons.

Niall

RE: Bilateral hind limb and tail amputation.

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:00:27 GMT

Come on, if it wasn't being discussed on this forum, it would be in the Daily Mail in a cruelty case.

The only thing I can add to the universal condemnation, is that urinary incontinence is always unusually distressing for dogs, in my experience, and permanent perpetuation after, any "procedure" is, IMHO, frankly, cruel!