Veterinary gender pay gap

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Jo Dyer — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:59:01 GMT

It's there Michael Woodhouse. I'll try to attach it here. Really interesting piece of research, well done BVA.

www.vetsurgeon.org/.../6237.Gender-discrimination-in-the-vet-profession.-BVA-workforce-report-Nov-2018.pdf

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

vs0u — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:35:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]You throw a dirty accusation out there "the study also found that those who believe that gender discrimination is a thing of the past are also most likely to discriminate against women, regardless of their own sex". Not especially helpful IMO[/quote]

I think that's a finding of the study rather than Arlo making an accusation

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:23:51 GMT

Arlo Guthrie I've followed the link to the BVA site but I can't find the paper.

You throw a dirty accusation out there "the study also found that those who believe that gender discrimination is a thing of the past are also most likely to discriminate against women, regardless of their own sex". Not especially helpful IMO.

I'll comment when I've seen the full paper. Could I suggest we chuck it in the journal club forum?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:08:25 GMT

Breaking news. Women ARE discriminated against in the profession.

This struck me as a very interesting piece of research which produced a compelling result: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/archive/2018/11/15/female-vets-are-discriminated-against.aspx

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Anthony Todd — Sun, 13 May 2018 11:14:26 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Lots more females are working part time. What does that say? How can we interpret that?[/quote]

Very easily, just measure what they do per 100 contacts [ie chances to offer or advise drugs or procedures].

My pure unjustifiable guess is that, like locums, usually, and with exceptions, having employed a fair few, part-timers do not much more than the minimum.

But, as I said, you've got no idea unless you measure.

[The differences between full-time vets are staggering, IME, totally independent of gender, work load or age too!]

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Vet2Vet — Sat, 12 May 2018 20:26:58 GMT

We can interpret this as our society has not moved far enough . Fathers are not actually as into equality as we might wish to believe . Also the majority of women are much better at multi tasking between career home and children and have superior organisational and interpersonal skills as they are forced to practice them on that most difficult customer - the classic two year old .

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 21:27:39 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]To me, it seems like there is evidence that a significant gender pay gap exists[/quote]

Well.... there is some data but its not great. Error bars would be lovely. Just grabbing an comparing means is rather lazy statistics. Maybe there is no real difference?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]My immediate thought is why would a female veterinary surgeon who is also a boss be any more or less likely pay women more or less than men?[/quote]

Small numbers in the sample would be my guess. Despite the feminisation of the profession my experience is the majority of the practice owners are male.

Lots more females are working part time. What does that say? How can we interpret that?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 19:28:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]All this discussion and posturing makes me laugh 'cos there is hardly any evidence.[/quote]

Doesn't that rather depends on 'evidence of what'?

To me, it seems like there is evidence that a significant gender pay gap exists. In other words women earn less than men. Female veterinary surgeons appear to earn less than male ones.

What we don't know is why. Is it because that is (indirectly or directly) their choice? Is it because of character traits which place women at a disadvantage financially? Is it because of subconscious bias on the part of employers. Is it the result of calculated discrimination (something I find really hard to believe).

[quote user="robloxley"]If we want to look at whether sex discrimination is occurring, can we not dig further into the data by sex of employer - there are plenty of practices run by female vets? Does the same pay disparity exist there?[/quote]

Someone else floated that idea to me the other day. My immediate thought is why would a female veterinary surgeon who is also a boss be any more or less likely pay women more or less than men? If (a big if) part of the issue is that female employees are less likely to ask for more money, that would presumably happen regardless of the gender of the boss?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Rob Loxley — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 19:19:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]but without some sort of measurement you're kidding yourself any anyone who listens ;cos if you'd measure you'd see how wrong you are![/quote]

This thread started with the results of measurement of pay - what are you talking about measuring? If you suggest again that the sole determinant of an employee's pay is their personal net profitability for the practice...

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Anthony Todd — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 18:58:13 GMT

All this discussion and posturing makes me laugh 'cos there is hardly any evidence.

From any standpoint, unless you have some sort of measurement in place ,you are only guessing and some will say "I've been employing staff for X years so I can etc. etc." but without some sort of measurement you're kidding yourself and anyone who listens ;cos if you'd measure you'd see how wrong you are!

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Rob Loxley — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 18:26:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="vs0u "]But the point is that young women who have not yet had children, and older women who have never had children are also paid less than the equivalent men[/quote]

vs0u - has this actually been established? What I mean is that the recent surveys didn't filter for childbirth.

Don't read this as me trying to dispute what you are saying, BTW. It may very well be true. I just haven't seen the evidence.

The CM research stuff did, however, filter for experience, and although small numbers, it did show a gap at all levels - childbirth certainly can't account for all of that.

[/quote]

If we want to look at whether sex discrimination is occurring, can we not dig further into the data by sex of employer - there are plenty of practices run by female vets? Does the same pay disparity exist there?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Bob Russell — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 17:28:38 GMT

I would not discuss the wages of a member of staff with another without their permission.

It is not secret but is private and personal and their choice.

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 17:06:53 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]But the point is that young women who have not yet had children, and older women who have never had children are also paid less than the equivalent men[/quote]

vs0u - has this actually been established? What I mean is that the recent surveys didn't filter for childbirth.

Don't read this as me trying to dispute what you are saying, BTW. It may very well be true. I just haven't seen the evidence.

The CM research stuff did, however, filter for experience, and although small numbers, it did show a gap at all levels - childbirth certainly can't account for all of that.

[quote user="vs0u "]Do employers on here tell their employees how much other employees are being paid? If not why not? [/quote]

Yes, why not?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

vs0u — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 16:47:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I would say the best way to level the playing field would be to acknowledge the fact that someone who has been spaying cats, administering boosters, performing dentistry, advising on analgesia for elderly pets etc etc etc for 5-10 years is unlikely to take more than a few procedures to be back up to their usual speed after 6-12 months off, and pay them accordingly [/quote]

Yes, but I'm not sure this really affects someone who has, after ten years experience, taken 6 months off to have one child, does it? (genuine question).

I imagined that we're talking about women who take a year or more off, more than once, and perhaps before they've got so much experience under their belt. And possibly don't work full time for some time afterwards.

I wonder whether there is any research which tells us how much time the average female veterinary surgeon takes off work after a child (including whether they return to full time work).

[/quote]

But the point is that young women who have not yet had children, and older women who have never had children are also paid less than the equivalent men - the childcare excuse always gets rolled out every time the pay discrepancy is discussed but that isn't the main reason, the difference is there right the way through. Also, after about 5 years, the amount of years since graduation isn't going to be the main factor deciding what a vet is worth to a practice. If the difference was really due to childcare it probably wouldn't kick in for about 5 years after graduation and then would disappear again after about 15 years graduated, as pay normally plateaus after 10 years experience assuming no extra certificates/skills are gained.

Transparency about pay is the only way to solve the problem. If there are differences in pay that aren't justified it gives people chance to challenge it. Do employers on here tell their employees how much other employees are being paid? If not why not?

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 15:24:27 GMT

Yes, but I'm not sure this really affects someone who has, after ten years experience, taken 6 months off to have one child, does it? (genuine question).

I wonder whether there is any research which tells us how much time the average female veterinary surgeon takes off work after a child (including whether they return to full time work).

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 14:54:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge nature and think of ways in which that handicap can be mitigated or eliminated, either by helping overcome it - say by giving women more help to catch up after maternity, or by levelling the playing field in some way. [/quote]

I would say the best way to level the playing field would be to acknowledge the fact that someone who has been spaying cats, administering boosters, performing dentistry, advising on analgesia for elderly pets etc etc etc for 5-10 years is unlikely to take more than a few procedures to be back up to their usual speed after 6-12 months off, and pay them accordingly

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 13:57:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I dunno, I still come back to transparency being the one thing that would cure the problem. If you know the bloke next to you is being paid more, then you can ask why, and if you're not happy with the answer, you can sell your services elsewhere.[/quote]

On that we agree!

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 13:52:38 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]OK. Put it another way. If a lady takes maternity leave, and the company she works for awards everyone a 2% pay rise while she is away, then she must also be awarded the same pay rise. Thus, she cannot be penalised for not being 'in service' for the same length of time. [/quote]

For sure. Isn't that what generally happens already? I would have thought any company that awarded a pay rise and excluded anyone on maternity leave at the time would be skating on very, very, very thin ice.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]people should be paid based on the job they are being employed to do and in their extra skills/qualifications, not on how many years it has been since they left uni![/quote]

Yes, I was thinking that the more you base the offered salary on the job spec, and the less you base it on the more subjective assessment of someone's skills, experience, ability etc, the less opportunity for inequality. But is that a realistic goal? Isn't the reality that employers need more flexibility when deciding who to hire - ie you advertise a job for x, but someone comes along who appears to be better at x and can also do y and z, they may want (and need) to offer them more.

I dunno, I still come back to transparency being the one thing that would cure the problem. If you know the bloke next to you is being paid more, then you can ask why, and if you're not happy with the answer, you can sell your services elsewhere.

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 13:23:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I just don't understand how you can argue that a woman who takes time off to have children is not going to be penalised for that. [/quote]

OK. Put it another way. If a lady takes maternity leave, and the company she works for awards everyone a 2% pay rise while she is away, then she must also be awarded the same pay rise. Thus, she cannot be penalised for not being 'in service' for the same length of time.

I do agree that experience plays a part in deciding what to pay somebody...and if a lady leaves university and immediately starts a family, then they will be on a new grad wage when they eventually start work. But I still think that after a fairly short period of time, max 5 years, people should be paid based on the job they are being employed to do and in their extra skills/qualifications, not on how many years it has been since they left uni! That should help to level the playing field??!

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Bob Russell — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 10:11:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I like to live dangerously....

If women were in charge of computers

[/quote]

At the risk of putting peoples backs up far more!

Perhaps for men it should contain a nicely folded wet wipe!

(Sorry just could not resist)

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 09:49:30 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]My face looks much the same if anyone approaches me with a human under the age of about 16. [/quote]

Laughed out loud!

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I don't think I'm automatically temperamentally more suited to looking after babies just because I'm a woman.[/quote]

Lucy Fleming I was thinking about that as I wrote it. I think there are two things. First of which is that the child has been part of the woman for 9 months, creating a profound bond that simply did not exist between me and my children when they were first born. I think the strength of that bond may make women the better parent in the early stages. I do also think as a generalisation that women are more tolerant. Am I wrong?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]So I know it's very un-PC, but I genuinely wonder whether equality over childcare is actually something to aspire to, or whether a mother's bond with her child (certainly in the first year(s)) is always going to make childcare more the preserve of women.[/quote]

That hasn't been my experience. Ian's 'bond' with our kids is the same as mine. His approach to parenting is different...but that would be the same in all families...both parents do things differently![/quote]

My bond with my children has grown to equal the one my wife has. Those little bundles of puke have turned into little girls who are at the centre of my universe (which is why the issue of gender equality is so important to me. I care a lot about the world they will inhabit when they grow up).

But yes:

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]His approach to parenting is different...but that would be the same in all families...both parents do things differently![/quote]

Yes, that's true. Breakfast with Daddy is somewhat different to breakfast with Mummy:

(Before you ask, that's double choc chip and pecan ice cream on a bed of pancakes served with a nutella ganache, a drizzle of maple syrup and a side of bacon)

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Neither do I think that it is particularly useful to argue that men and women have different character traits, especially with increasing evidence to suggest that we actually don't unless society moulds us that way.[/quote]

I think it's also unhelpful to deny that different character traits exist!

Personally, I think the first step is to try and identify which are nurture and which are nature. Surely by answering that, we can understand which are the limitations wrongly imposed by society and which are things that everyone has to work with.

I found this Channel 4 video very powerful, highlighting a lot of the artificial societal barriers:

www.youtube.com/watch

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Women are entitled to NEVER be penalised for taking statutory maternity leave. IT SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CALCULATING A SALARY! [/quote]

Gillian Mostyn - I really don't understand how you can make this argument. I'm not trying to be difficult here. I just don't understand how you can argue that a woman who takes time off to have children is not going to be penalised for that. I wouldn't have used the word 'penalised' because that suggests someone actively applying a penalty. I would have instead said that it handicaps women's career progression. It does.

To suggest it could be any other way seems to me to be denying nature, and therefore unlikely to produce the result which I think most people accept as the right thing: equality.

Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge nature and think of ways in which that handicap can be mitigated or eliminated, either by helping overcome it - say by giving women more help to catch up after maternity, or by levelling the playing field in some way.

PS Ladies, please don't get angry with me! I'm not trying to sustain patriarchal views here. I want my daughters (or one of them at least) to be able to achieve her dreams, unfettered by what society deems is 'the right/wrong thing'. I just think that to achieve that, we need to recognise the differences and work with them.

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 08:50:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Same experience = same pay.[/quote]

I'm not disputing that. I'm just arguing that this [quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]One vet with a career break versus one that hasn't = less pay.[/quote] is an over-simplification (whatever the reason for the career break). I also don't argue with starting with the SPVS survey salaries, based on years worked. But surely you take other things into account (call it the quality of experience rather than quantity if you like) based on CV, discussion at interview, even just the feeling of how they will fit into the team, when deciding whether to make an offer and how much for?

Blaming the pay gap on career breaks to have children doesn't take into account any of the other factors, doesn't get any closer to solving the problem, and displays a certain ostritch-like tendency

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] I still think its fair that experience is reflected in pay (bear in mind that type of work is fixed as the employer making the offer - it's the same job whoever I get to fill it). [/quote] I'm finding this a bit of a circular argument - if it's exactly the same job, then the candidates should get exactly the same pay, whether you are using your hypothetical chap's hypothetical extra 2 years of experience over their career or not...

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:45:58 GMT

Have you actually thought about what you are saying Michael?

Women are entitled to NEVER be penalised for taking statutory maternity leave. IT SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CALCULATING A SALARY!

OK...put it this way... Imagine you and your wife are vets and qualified together. You work together and get paid the same for 5 years. You then decide to start a family. As your wife is the only one with the uterus, she HAS to do that bit. She comes back to work 1 year later on a lower wage than you now enjoy. The same happens 2 years later. She is now 2 years behind you, simply on the basis that she is the only one with the plumbing.

Do you really think that is acceptable? If you was the one with the uterus, would you be happy to earn less than your contemporaries for the rest of your career because you can grow a human?

Unless people such as yourself can see the flaw, there will always be a gender pay gap!!!

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 23:42:50 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]it isn't a valid reason. Realistically, beyond perhaps the first year or two qualified, experience can't really be measured in years, as it's so variable depending on the type of work you are doing. So if ten-years-qualified women are being paid less than ten-years-qualified men, regardless of whether they have taken time out for children, then that's discrimination.[/quote]

No, it bloody well isn't. How do you propose an employer can make a salary offer to a new applicant for a position? I base that on the SPVS survey, by years worked. It's not a perfect system and future pay is dependant on business and employee performance, but it's a start.

I would consider time working as a vet, so a bloke taking a year off for a backpacking tour of Asia would also get a year of clinical work knocked off when making that initial offer. I still think its fair that experience is reflected in pay (bear in mind that type of work is fixed as the employer making the offer - it's the same job whoever I get to fill it).

I admit that another bloke around the place would be nice (I'm outnumbered 8:1) but I'm quite happy working with women and in no way 'discriminating' based on sex. It's a real shame that we can't have a sensible discussion without that and feminism being thrown about.

Same experience = same pay. One vet with a career break versus one that hasn't = less pay.

RE: Veterinary gender pay gap

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 23:24:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]if you mean a better explanation for the reasons why this appears to be the case, 'taking time out' might be tired, but it does seem to be one of the more plausible ones (alongside women having different character traits). [/quote] That's just my point - it isn't a valid reason. Realistically, beyond perhaps the first year or two qualified, experience can't really be measured in years, as it's so variable depending on the type of work you are doing. So if ten-years-qualified women are being paid less than ten-years-qualified men, regardless of whether they have taken time out for children, then that's discrimination. I'm sure it is unconscious bias, rather than employers setting out planning to pay women less, but the result is the same. While we're not really on the topic, it would be interesting to hear how many female vets if attending interviews, especially in their late twenties or early thirties, have considered removing their wedding or engagement rings to counter the assumption that 'babies are next'

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] well ... the expression on my face here rather summed up my feeling about childcare:[/quote] My face looks much the same if anyone approaches me with a human under the age of about 16. I don't think I'm automatically temperamentally more suited to looking after babies just because I'm a woman. Neither do I think that it is particularly useful to argue that men and women have different character traits, especially with increasing evidence to suggest that we actually don't unless society moulds us that way.[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I like to live dangerously....

If women were in charge of computers

[/quote] I don't wear make up much, but if I did, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this highly intelligent, space saving invention. Just like a woman to consider multi-tasking, eh?