Salary and Stress Survey

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 17:32:44 GMT

It will all change when sex robots become eligible for support payments.

No Valentines cards or forgotten anniversaries to worry about. Sounds like bliss!

Not sure I have ever quite been forgiven for buying my wife a lawnmower for our anniversary. A robot would (presumably) have kept its mouth closed and seethed electronically!

Complete divergence of topic over!

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 17:26:07 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Sorry, but what have Sex Robots got to do with anything?[/quote]

Not much, I was just thinking you're forever going on at people for behaviour that you find difficult to understand (whether it be blowing off steam, getting a virtual hug, being positive, complaining etc), and I was just musing to myself that most of these behaviours that you seem to find so difficult to understand or empathise with pale in comparison to the stuff I was watching last night (such as sitting down for a telly supper on the sofa with three sex robots alongside), and my point was just tolerance, really. Who are we to judge?

[quote user="J G Wray"][Aside - I enjoyed the second Blade Runner film even with the lame ending][/quote]

Sorry, but what has Blade Runner got to do with anything? Actually, I watched the first one the other night in preparation for watching the second. I hope the second is not as boring as the first.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Well, I think there's plenty of evidence that having a flexible outlook etc. is better than virtual sympathy[/quote]

I say again, they are not mutually exclusive.

[quote user="J G Wray"]VDS has the merit of being real and helping all the way through any litigation or professional complaint process. It's the full treatment rather than a plaster.[/quote]

Sure, but we weren't talking about litigation or professional complaint.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Do I have your permission to quote you from time to time?[/quote]

Ha. Touche.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

J G Wray — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:44:01 GMT

Sorry, but what have Sex Robots got to do with anything?

[Aside - I enjoyed the second Blade Runner film even with the lame ending]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]is it better to have a flexible mindset, objectify the process and contact VDS for sage advice, not a social media forum?[/quote]

Horses for courses. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It seems to me, from many years moderating, that some people simply want to ask for an opinion (often anonymously) from a forum of their peers.

Besides which, the VDS does not have a monopoly on sage advice. I often see sage advice being given here.

[/quote]

Well, I think there's plenty of evidence that having a flexible outlook etc. is better than virtual sympathy and VDS has the merit of being real and helping all the way through any litigation or professional complaint process. It's the full treatment rather than a plaster.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]it may not be your thing, but hey, live and let live[/quote]...

and

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Nobody needs lecturing.[/quote]

Do I have your permission to quote you from time to time?

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 09:10:52 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]GDPR ramifications and getting supplier Privacy Policy and Ts and Cs updated - I wonder how this site is going to handle data[/quote]

GDPR is essentially trying to clamp down on dodgy operators: organisations that harvest data and use it for purposes that the 'owner' of the data never expected or wanted. In fact, we use data in such a limited way (basically to manage membership and allow functionality on the site, and to send emails, which only ever come from us and which you can opt out of).

We will continue to operate that way, and the biggest impact on us is to improve the clarity with which we explain how data is used. On registration, there'll be new popups to explain specifically how each field is used.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Probably most of all, at the moment anyway, I don't understand the idea that anyone can present the solution to anyone's problem in a relentlessly positive way, because that ain't life. To do so is inauthentic and only setting someone up for further failure. If you're feeling hard done by use process to look at what happened to get you where you are and be prepared to change self not others. If you only look for others who are similarly distressed and believe a social media hug and a joining in some kind of jeremiad will solve your problems then carry on, but it won't change anything for next time."[/quote]

Who ever said that solutions to people's problems should be presented in an endlessly positive way? I would have thought it's pretty clear that when people ask for advice in these forums, they tend to get a range of answers, from 'supportive social media hug' to practical suggestions, to 'pull your socks up' type stuff.

That said, I'm slightly perplexed by your apparent disdain for a 'social media hug'. Does it ever occur to you that actually, sometimes people aren't looking for an answer (they've figured that out for themselves). In fact, all they want is precisely that, a social media hug; the knowledge that they are not alone.

[quote user="J G Wray"]is it better to have a flexible mindset, objectify the process and contact VDS for sage advice, not a social media forum?[/quote]

Besides which, the VDS does not have a monopoly on sage advice. I often see sage advice being given here.

I was watching a programme on Channel 4 last night: The Sex Robots Are Coming (a whole different discussion!). There's an example of behaviour I really find hard to understand (husband propping up three dolls to watch the tv in the evening, whilst wife looked on in a slightly bemused but accepting fashion). Anyway, the designer of the 'sexbots' was interviewed, saying he accepted that some people find the whole thing weird, but society is becoming more accepting of 'difference' and he felt sure that in time it would be similarly tolerant of sexbots.

That's how I feel already. I mean, the idea of a sexbot is so far outside my scope of thinking, I find it quite impossible to understand. But each to their own, and whilst I might not invite them (and their 'partner') to dinner, I wouldn't dream of lecturing someone if that's their gig.

Perhaps that's an ethos you could also apply to people who seek advice or support in social media, JGW. In other words, it may not be your thing, but hey, live and let live. Nobody needs lecturing.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:52:09 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

However, there was, in my opinion (nod to Mr G) at least one truly awful comment

"..But perhaps I'm exercising my right to be a professional offence-taker .." - I see this as straight out of the "I find that offensive" Claire Fox thing, where, actually there is no right to take offence when what you're really trying to do is tell others to shut up, aiming to narrow others views, control debate and harm social freedoms.

[/quote]

Gosh, perhaps I should have added a tongue in cheek emoji to avoid any confusion... I merely meant to acknowledge that I recognize that part of a columnist's job is to deliberately provide content that is 'offensive' to some and seen as 'cutting through the bulls***' by others. Regardless, I consider her words to be transphobic, and I found them offensive. She is of course, still entitled to write them. I'm terribly sorry you found it so "truly awful"

Pleased to hear you had such a productive January. Good to have you back

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

J G Wray — Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:04:15 GMT

Been away from social meeja for while back in Practice Land and it's quite busy for us. We've had our Q1 Strategy meeting which everyone enjoys, there's been getting a grip on the draft Ionising Regulation Regs - 192 pages, mostly irrelevant if not handling isotopes - a new PMS, hardware and updated software, GDPR ramifications and getting supplier Privacy Policy and Ts and Cs updated - I wonder how this site is going to handle data, progressing our practice clinical development, welcoming new (additional) nurses and client care staff etc etc and we look like we've had our best January possibly ever. This last is v welcome after December, which was, as usual, rubbish.

This has all made me a bit busy, but then I get paid really well for this and, bonus, I get to be a vet as well. I'm also not particularly stressed, because that really ain't the same thing. Just sayin'.

Anyway I notice there's been a mood to castigate me, which is nothing new, but not particularly even handed, which is also....It's probably a good thing I don't take offence. This is, after all, a social media site.

I notice there's been a number of other threads which have had some comments, and to use the instruction from Mr G I'm supposed to apply my personal opinion, here's a summary:

On the matter of "Making a mistake":

Probably most of all, at the moment anyway, I don't understand the idea that anyone can present the solution to anyone's problem in a relentlessly positive way, because that ain't life. To do so is inauthentic and only setting someone up for further failure. If you're feeling hard done by use process to look at what happened to get you where you are and be prepared to change self not others. If you only look for others who are similarly distressed and believe a social media hug and a joining in some kind of jeremiad will solve your problems then carry on, but it won't change anything for next time."

It goes a bit further because the suggestion to learn from mistakes and not repeat them is too wooly. What lessons should you learn from inevitable clinical and client problems? Are these lessons to become generally defensive in practice or is it better to have a flexible mindset, objectify the process and contact VDS for sage advice, not a social media forum? I think only one person suggested VDS. Not quite sure why it was only one.

Then there's the "sick of it" thread. There was a paper in the VR not so long ago about how younger vets are expecting work to be congruent with their needs. I'm surprised no one mentioned this. That whinge all felt a bit "entitled" to me, but didn't make me feel sick as it did at least one other person - that would be too strong a sentiment.

However, there was, in my opinion (nod to Mr G) at least one truly awful comment

Note, I have depersonalised these comments except to express my own.

Still there were also a few laughs - here's one:

“Ps takes a lot to get me fighting but when I do..”

No it doesn’t, it just takes one little question (not from me either) and the rocket goes off.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 12:20:35 GMT

Thanks Arlo, I'll try......

PS this:

What I would have said is something like: "Kate, that's a bit strong". But actually, we all know Anthony Todd and whatever else he might be, he's a true gent. So I thought: "Naah, he'll come back and explain".

Instead, you leap in and call her a snowflake. That's not helpful. It's inflammatory.

Made me think you thought I had?? But i didn't read it properly.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:55:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Arlo it weren't me wot called someone a snowflake[/quote]

Didn't say it was!

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]PS can you tell me how to post an Excel chart, or charts into a post please or direct me to the instructions.[/quote]

hmm - you really need to export the chart as an image. Not sure if/how you do that. But alternatively you could open the chart in excel, take a screengrab, crop it and post.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:40:04 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] Anthony Todd and whatever else he might be, he's a true gent. So I thought: "Naah, he'll come back and explain".[/quote]

Arlo it weren't me wot called someone a snowflake, anyone, 'cos I'm not totally sure wot it means.......

PS can you tell me how to post an Excel chart, or charts into a post please or direct me to the instructions.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Kate Richardson — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:26:45 GMT

Ps takes a lot to get me fighting but when I do.....

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Kate Richardson — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 11:25:50 GMT

Thanks Arlo and thanks Bob!

I agree I could have worded it better or poss just inserted a smiley/tongue in cheek afterwards to lighten the tone! Cos that was how it was meant!

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 10:50:23 GMT

I very much doubt that Kate Richardson qualifies for the title 'snowflake' nor does the image of her rolling up her sleeves for a fight appear right either.

Hope the clinic is going well!!!

It does concern me that the more caustic comments are off putting. They also come over as rude. That is never necessary between professionals.

The oblique comments do challenge at times!

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 10:28:54 GMT

Deary, deary me. Turned my back for a moment ... should have jumped in earlier. Sorry everyone.

In the case of Wray vs Richardson, Groovejet, Todd, Taylor et al

Dons wig.

First things first. Every time anyone posts here, it reflects on all of us and directly affects whether others will come and join in (particularly newcomers) or not. If I visit a forum and find it peppered with apparently snide remarks, I sure as hell ain't going to stick my neck out!

That's not to say we want an endless stream of chocolate-creme-niceness. Actually, my impression is that the sorts of debates that go on here are often more thoughtful, more challenging than I see elsewhere (in part, I suspect, due to the format), which is a good thing.

But there's a world of difference between challenging and being snide. I think Thomas Johnson hits the nail squarely:

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]supporting someone doesn't preclude telling someone that the way they are doing something isn't the best way of doing it, or even that what they have done is wrong. Supporting them means explaining why there are better ways of doing something, in some cases telling them or showing them a better way to do something, or in others helping them to work it out for themselves.[/quote]

Various things already said really stand out to me here:

[quote user="GrooveJet"]Mr Wray, why do your posts always have to be so snide, disparaging, negative, incoherent and utterly pointless? Why is it so hard for you to be supportive of your fellow colleagues?[/quote]

J G Wray, I DON'T agree with "utterly pointless", but it's hard to disagree with the overall sentiment. Especially when:

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]such posts so obviously continue to cause offence[/quote]

I also agree, Tony, when you say:

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]look for the pearls among the acorns, and there are some[/quote]

There most definitely are.

J G Wray - Dunno why, but until this thread, I'd had this sense reading your posts that you'd mellowed a tad; become more helpful; less obliquely snide.

Then your reaction to Kate Richardson asking if Anthony Todd was calling her a liar, earlier in the thread. I happen to agree Kate's question did read a bit strong (visions of sleeves rolled up, fists ready), and I did think of saying something at the time.

Instead, you leap in and call her a snowflake. That's not helpful. It's inflammatory.

Anyway, I have two pieces of advice J G Wray:

CALL A SPADE A SPADE
Your posts are often oblique. Sometimes that can be useful. It challenges the reader to understand what you're saying and perhaps give your post more thought (although equally risks the reader thinking: "naaah, I give up"). But criticising obliquely, or with ill-defined epithets like 'snowflake' is not appropriate for this medium. Stop it.

AS MY MUM USED TO SAY ...
Actually, she didn't, but the saying goes: "If you haven't got anything nice to say, stuff a sock in your mouth" (or something like that).

I mean, we all know:

[quote user="J G Wray"]I've often said, perhaps you've missed it, that this is just a social media platform where everything is opinion and there's plenty I don't understand about it. I don't understand the misanthropy directed at clients. I don't understand the self-pity. I don't understand lack of knowledge beyond Our World. I don't understand the lack of realism. I don't understand the "Smile of Die" stuff. [/quote]

I think you often read way, way too much into the sentiments expressed in these forums. In other words, you seem to think that if someone posts, for example, something which appears to you to be misanthropic or self-pitying, that reflects their entire world view. In reality, forums like these provide a vent for these kinds of (often transient) thoughts. In other words, it's nice to have a moan or a rant from time to time. It doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Just because someone posts an negative observation about clients (for example), or is feeling a bit sorry for themselves about something, it doesn't mean they think that way about everything and they need a lecture from you.

In short, if you can't find a way of expressing your criticism / disagreement without being snide about another member, then shut up.

Be clear. Be constructive.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

vs0u — Thu, 01 Feb 2018 10:00:24 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Millenials think primarily about What Can The World Do For Me / How Does The World Make Me Feel. Previous generations think How Can I Contribute.

I find their stance odd

[/quote]

Surely you are a millenial yourself? Do you fit in with this stereotype?

[quote user="David Mills"]

Their stated aims are coming for:

1. Information.

2. Assurance.

[/quote]

Fair enough.

As well as the above, I come on here for a good discussion, which for me is more enjoyable when the arguments speak for themselves, and is spoiled by people calling other people old fruit or a snowflake, or being patronising or superior.

Surely no-one wants to be derided or sneered at - so that makes it bad manners to do so - in real life or here.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

David Mills — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:29:45 GMT

I don't think GrooveJet is a manager. Their stated aims are coming for:

1. Information.

2. Assurance.

Both of which are taking. Perhaps a Millennial trait. Which was summed up to me today as thus. Millenials think primarily about What Can The World Do For Me / How Does The World Make Me Feel. Previous generations think How Can I Contribute.

I find their stance odd, but then again I don't know why pensioners go skiing or retired people turbo post.

C'est la vie.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Julian Earl — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:15:42 GMT

Hey people, Could we just step back from any potential mud-slinging and return to the original topic?

Thanks in advance.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

J G Wray — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 21:02:31 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"] By all means, share your "pearls" with us, but please, please spare us your personal opinions.[/quote]

There's a point of difference. I wouldn't say spare us your opinion.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Miriam Lodewyks — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:43:45 GMT

More acorns....

I hear what you're saying Mr Wray: it's not your duty to "cheer us up".

Believe it or not, I am well aware that life can throw you lemons... and I do try to make lemonade when I can. I'm not asking for a cyberhug, but some validation that you're not on your own out there is comforting to some of us. It's not nice when an interesting post gets derailed by snide, caustic, and endless uninteresting ramblings... By all means, share your "pearls" with us, but please, please spare us your personal opinions.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

J G Wray — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:09:35 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]I have no interest whatsoever in Mr Wray's need to wave his "anatomy", and I find his babblings so prolific with acorns that I have yet to encounter a real "pearl".[/quote]

Now, now you'll be getting some unwanted attention for writing stuff like that.

I've often said, perhaps you've missed it, that this is just a social media platform where everything is opinion and there's plenty I don't understand about it. I don't understand the misanthropy directed at clients. I don't understand the self-pity. I don't understand lack of knowledge beyond Our World. I don't understand the lack of realism. I don't understand the "Smile of Die" stuff.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Miriam Lodewyks — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 17:42:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]In less polite circles it would be said that he is waving a [possibly insubstantial] part of his anatomy around, so just ignore it and just look for the pearls among the acorns, and there are some.[/quote]

Thing is: I visit this forum for two reasons - to pick up the odd "pearl", and to gain reassurance that my cohort are experiencing similar frustrations, difficulties and triumphs... ie. for some "support".

I have no interest whatsoever in Mr Wray's need to wave his "anatomy", and I find his babblings so prolific with acorns that I have yet to encounter a real "pearl".

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Anthony Todd — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 17:34:05 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Here's my answer, but first pass me a hankie.

Why not check out the crass challenge?

I don't mind being scapegoated - that's a product of learning resilience and stoicism following some difficult times, so whatever works for you.

[/quote]

He's never a "scapegoat" nor a whipping boy, rather the whipper!

It's just a pity that someone [I assume....] has been in practice for a length, has staff employed, with all the slings and arrows and ordure that come from all of that, seems to post in such disapproved manner when such posts so obviously continue to cause offence.

It's also a pity that readers/responders/respondees [Evelyn, is there such a word?] react so extremely when most of the time, if not all of the time, JGW is just showing off.

In less polite circles it would be said that he is waving a [possibly insubstantial] part of his anatomy around, so just ignore it and just look for the pearls among the acorns, and there are some.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Miriam Lodewyks — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:45:56 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

but first pass me a hankie.

Why not check out the crass challenge?

I don't mind being scapegoated - that's a product of learning resilience and stoicism following some difficult times, so whatever works for you.

[/quote]

Sigh...

And with that I rest my case.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Julian Earl — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 11:35:49 GMT

Thanks for that clarification and apology, Anthony. It keeps the forum professional and high-standard. I suspect that we all new what you meant so it must have been the way you "said it" as it were.

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Niall Taylor — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:47:54 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I don't understand this, supporting someone doesn't preclude telling someone that the way they are doing something isn't the best way of doing it, or even that what they have done is wrong. Supporting them means explaining why there are better ways of doing something, in some cases telling them or showing them a better way to do something, or in others helping them to work it out for themselves.[/quote]

Exactly, and it doesn't include calling someone with concerns a 'snowflake', that's not support, it's something else altogether

Niall

RE: Salary and Stress Survey

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:33:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]But the converse of only support and sympathy can't be the universal ubiquitous solution to inexperience and inadequacy which seems to be the tendency, or even the norm, now.[/quote]

I don't understand this, supporting someone doesn't preclude telling someone that the way they are doing something isn't the best way of doing it, or even that what they have done is wrong. Supporting them means explaining why there are better ways of doing something, in some cases telling them or showing them a better way to do something, or in others helping them to work it out for themselves.