Chiropractors

RE: Chiropractors

Anthony Todd — Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:27:30 GMT

Yeah, I know a well-known multi practice vet who changed his Beemer 'cos of chronic back pain. it was nearly new too!

PS I know a good physio near London Bridge who I taught to do the "chiro" twist and now fixes my back every time I lift and twist a monster bag [guess who's] off a carousel!

PM me 'cos they're as rare as rocking horse excrement. [unless you want your sacrum stroked, that is] [or your hip joint replaced......]

RE: Chiropractors

David Catlow — Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:18:06 GMT

[quote user="villagevet"]I certainly can't drive or travel in ford or vauxhall car seats without back pain[/quote]The seats in my Skoda Ocatvia as the most comfortable I've ever experienced - no back or bum pain even after 12-13 hour drives across Europe. Can't say that about a succession of BMWs and Subarus.

helpful to know, thank you. I'll go look at the Skoda as my back starts to ache badly after 2 hours in my current car...a vauxhall

RE: Chiropractors

Iain Richards — Tue, 27 Feb 2018 12:15:47 GMT

I too read that with rolling eyes!

RE: Chiropractors

Niall Taylor — Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:34:28 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]I’m not a chiropractor convert either. In my experience sports physiotherapists are excellent at dealing with back problems, and advising on exercises to maintain a pain free life .

It‘s total b******s when an equine chiropracter says a horse’s pelvis is “ tilted” and they “ pop” it’s lumbar vertebrae back into alignment.[/quote]

I see there was another load of 'questionable' content from veterinary chiros in the latest Vet Practice (p 20-21) - http://fs-1.5mpublishing.com/vet/issues/2018/02/vp_2018_02.pdf . Claims about being able to diagnose 'functional changes' in the 'vertebral motion unit', and pop them back into place, thereby fixing all sorts of stuff. 'Irritated nerves', 'fine tuning' of the 'complex neurological control programme' - all meaningless.

None of the references given supported in any serious way what the authors were claiming in the article and they seem to have forgotten to mention that no one has ever managed to objectively identify any chiropractic so-called lesion, apart from chiropractors themselves. They even admit they don't show up on x-ray, but say that's ok because they're 'holistic'!

I despair.

Niall

RE: Chiropractors

Anthony Todd — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:42:58 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Well yes, but you are VERY old[/quote]

So the elderly:

[a] just have to suffer until death?

[b] can't give opinions?

[c] have anecdotes dismissed?

[sigh] the crosses some have to bear!!

Must contact Simon Sinek on Millennials in the Workplace

RE: Chiropractors

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 01:07:25 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Dunno what it is but if I lift and rotate anything heavy from a car-boot I'll get pain which continues until someone who knows manipulates it back until the next time.[/quote]

Well yes, but you are VERY old

RE: Chiropractors

Anthony Todd — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 19:14:34 GMT

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]Interestingly, in that time, the SI joint has changed from being a fused joint as I was taught at college, to being in fact a synovial joint! There's progress for you.[/quote]

Dunno what it is but if I lift and rotate anything heavy from a car-boot I'll get pain which continues until someone who knows manipulates it back until the next time.

I really don't care if it's science, bull dust, baloney or voodoo, if I crawl into the office, bent double, and he does it, and I walk out ,upright, smiling and no pain at all I'm happy.

PS ALL London black cabs *ugger my back on the first bump!!

RE: Chiropractors

Phil Hyde — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:27:11 GMT

I, too, along with half the world's population, have had sacro-iliac problems. When I was pre-college, an osteopath x-rayed me, diagnosed disc prolapse, then treated me for sacro-iliac subluxation! Duh. In later life, my doctor would do the manipulation, thus avoiding being told that I had a fragile liver. Now I just rest for three days. Looks like the manipulation made no difference. How's that for a clinical trial?

Interestingly, in that time, the SI joint has changed from being a fused joint as I was taught at college, to being in fact a synovial joint! There's progress for you.

RE: Chiropractors

Anthony Todd — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:11:35 GMT

I had [I was told] sacro-iliac displacement after a Fresiian kneeled on me years ago [absolutely no sympathy from my boss...] imagine the litigation and time off today.

Had a total resolution from the chief of the London School of Osteopathy [crawled in, walked out] and a guy, Bryn Thomas in Nambour, Qld when it recurred after lifting heavy stuff out of a car-boot and again at intervals.

Have had delightful appointments with attractive physio stroking my sacrum [not the front] which made no difference at all, and even more pointless pressure from some physios who, by moderate pressure on my hip joint, could reduce it's dislocation which was. assuredly, the problem.....

RE: Chiropractors

Lazy Bee — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 12:40:22 GMT

Yep - the Skandi's vehicles have been unashamedly ergonomic and back-friendly for years.

Having said that, I had an ST2000 (really practical practice car!) with Recaro front seats, firm, fitted like a glove - no back prob's. Similarly, a variety of VAG products all firm with good lumbar support - nary a problem - but go back to my Datsun/Nissans, Renaults and Citroens of the 70s and 80s and I struggled to straighten my back every time I got out of the car.

RE: Chiropractors

Ashley Rubens — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 23:23:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Just in the name of balance...

2 months ago I hurt my shoulder (carrying excessively large logs while splitting them for the log pile!)

For the first time in 10 years I called in sick and went to see GP. The pain was so severe I was convinced I'd done some real harm. Told was a 'just' a soft tissue injury, to continue moving joint as normally as possible (is don't 'guard it' as it will cause long term issues) and given painkillers.

Continued to work as normal and 4 weeks later was perfect and hasn't caused any problems since.

I guess if I'd been impatient and gone to see a chiropractor I could have thought they'd fixed it??

I know that it is really tempting to attribute healing to all kinds of funky treatments ... but, as we all know, the body usually, simply, just heals itself!

[/quote]

Good point, but in my defence I did wait 2 years and have an MRI! I think in my case I actually needed a new injury to distract the scar tissue which had formed, don’t think I’d have been brave enough to consent to that if I’d thought about it though...

RE: Chiropractors

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:22:50 GMT

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]To be fair, chiropractors can help with some shoulder problems, simply by using massage on muscles in spasm. As can a physio or a proper trained doctor. [/quote]

Absolutely. And I suspect the best advice that GP gave me was to keep using the shoulder and don't be tempted to rest it. I must admit I would have assumed that the opposite was true. I am sure that many people with painful musculoskeletal injuries, be it shoulder, back, neck or elsewhere, would automatically restrict use and therefore end up with more issues. As you say, massage and physio will help in these situations, regardless of the 'profession' of the bloke doing it. But, as you say, they certainly aren't 'realigning bones' or fixing livers!!!

RE: Chiropractors

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 09:00:35 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]Worst case you’re down £30.[/quote]No, worst case you're paralysed!!

RE: Chiropractors

Phil Hyde — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 07:57:52 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Just in the name of balance...

2 months ago I hurt my shoulder (carrying excessively large logs while splitting them for the log pile!)

Continued to work as normal and 4 weeks later was perfect and hasn't caused any problems since.

I guess if I'd been impatient and gone to see a chiropractor I could have thought they'd fixed it??

I know that it is really tempting to attribute healing to all kinds of funky treatments ... but, as we all know, the body usually, simply, just heals itself!

[/quote]To be fair, chiropractors can help with some shoulder problems, simply by using massage on muscles in spasm. As can a physio or a proper trained doctor. Of course, you can guarantee that whilst doing this they will diagnose a fragile liver!

RE: Chiropractors

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 07:47:14 GMT

Just in the name of balance...

2 months ago I hurt my shoulder (carrying excessively large logs while splitting them for the log pile!)

Continued to work as normal and 4 weeks later was perfect and hasn't caused any problems since.

I guess if I'd been impatient and gone to see a chiropractor I could have thought they'd fixed it??

I know that it is really tempting to attribute healing to all kinds of funky treatments ... but, as we all know, the body usually, simply, just heals itself!

RE: Chiropractors

Ashley Rubens — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:44:49 GMT

Personal experience C6/7 radiculopathy post climbing accident. GP said take ibuprofen and get used to it, will be forever. Went to a chiropractor who did something initially quite painful but 24 hours later no pain, no restriction and full return to use of left arm. Of course, it could have just been coincidence.

I think there’s a big difference between chiropractors claiming to help spinal pain by spinal manipulation (massage?) and those claiming to cure fertility. God knows there’s enough charlatan vets out there for us to see that maybe we shouldn’t tar all with the same brush.

Worst case you’re down £30.

RE: Chiropractors

Lindsey Edwards — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:35:27 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]chiropractic claims to 'cure' the non-musculo-skeletal problems you have mentioned such as infertility, incontinence and coat condition[/quote][quote user="Niall Taylor"]claiming to treat asthma in ill children or infertility in people[/quote]

There is a massive difference in claiming a manipulative treatment can or will 'cure' any or all health conditions - indeed anyone claiming this would be more than bogus! It is my opinion however that some health conditions may indeed respond to manipulation (and not in 'move x bone and expect Y effect necessarily - there is so much positive and negative feedback throughout and within the nervous system that this may never be a predictable sequence).

RE: Chiropractors

Lindsey Edwards — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:26:56 GMT

Strangely...were saab seats not designed by a chiropractor focusing on spinal posture?

I certainly can't drive or travel in ford or vauxhall car seats without back pain

RE: Chiropractors

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 11:02:32 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]All the case reports are great, but they all should end with, "But it could have been co-incidence"[/quote]

As someone who has spent a decade monitoring a patient's response to a wide variety of different drugs, I SO agree with you, and if I'm honest, I'm quite surprised whenever I see a VS quoting a case study (aka 'a story') as evidence of something.

I know I'm a bit evangelical on the subject (and in danger of being nominated for Private Eye's 'Great Bores of Today'), but you just can't read anything whatsoever into someone (or even lots of people individually) reporting getting pregnant after chiropractic (any more than you could read something into the fact that they had baked beans before they went to bed that night, or that there was a full moon).

I think if I was a doctor, I would believe anecdote ONLY when a) there was strong scientific evidence for the mode of action, b) there were good quality trials demonstrating efficacy c) I'd seen cause and (rapid) effect repeatedly myself, in different patients and d) the noted effect was not subjective.

With others, I'm now trying to put together a sort of grading system; a bonkers-o-meter or 'quackograph' if you like, which ranks some of these alternative treatments on a scale of plausibility. To be read in conjunction with 'No Way To Treat A Friend'.

RE: Chiropractors

Niall Taylor — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:25:19 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I have a couple of those of ghosts around the surgery... the nurses were convinced[/quote]

Was this manifestation accompanied by a rash of broken clippers, malfunctioning pulse-oximeters and instruments mysteriously being put in the wrong boxes? Cos we've got one of them too

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]there has to be a logical explanation[/quote]

Remember, science doesn't know everything though, ergo ghosts exist - simples!

Niall

RE: Chiropractors

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:59:05 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]A ghost story thread would be great fun[/quote]Well I have a couple of those of ghosts around the surgery which are very convincing if you believe in these things, the nurses were convinced but there has to be a logical explanation even if its not obvious at the time.

RE: Chiropractors

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:34:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]and believe in other supernatural phenomena?![/quote]

Like ghosts? A ghost story thread would be great fun

RE: Chiropractors

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 08:48:07 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"] I think it shows that many vet are not good enough scientists.[/quote]I wonder how many of these are also religious and believe in other supernatural phenomena?!

RE: Chiropractors

Iain Richards — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 07:23:23 GMT

This is such a great thread. I think it shows that many vet are not good enough scientists. All the case reports are great, but they all should end with, "But it could have been co-incidence"

RE: Chiropractors

Lazy Bee — Thu, 11 Jan 2018 07:15:52 GMT

Years ago was persuaded to see a chiropractor for my chronic bad back - after a 1/2hour of "manipulation" and massage I certainly felt better, but by the time I'd driven home I was as bad as ever. This was repeated twice more over a week. So I gave up - shortly afterwards I replaced my practice car with an old Saab, and my back trouble largely disappeared.