Displaying salaries in job adverts

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 13:33:27 GMT

We updated VetSurgeon Jobs last night, so now salary and benefits are integral (but optional).

And, very exciting, I see we have our first practice advertising a 'Minimum Offer', for a locum job in February:

Currently top of the list here: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/veterinary-jobs/

and displayed here:

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/veterinary-jobs/locum-exotics-vet-leek-3172/

I've added a list of benefits which advertisers can now highlight, things like RCVS fees, CPD etc.

Sort of thinking I ought to have 'Private Pension' on the list, but wonder if those are the right words. As I understand all employers have to contribute to a pension these days, and I wonder if 'Private Pension' would mean 'something more than the basic thing' to every jobseeker?

Thoughts anyone?

And I think I saw life assurance on one advert in the past - does anyone know if life assurance is a common additional benefit in veterinary practice?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Wren — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 09:12:09 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]RCVS registration fee as a separate entity (as you can't practice without it)?[/quote]

Good point. Some employers pay it, some don't.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:21:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Specifically, Michael Woodhouse, I added subscriptions from one of your earlier posts, and I presume you meant association subs (or did you mean magazine subs?).[/quote]

Yes, I meant things like BVA, BCVA, SVS, BSAVA, BEVA etc

RCVS registration fee as a separate entity (as you can't practice without it)?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:55:17 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Medical insurance?[/quote]

Oh, yes, thanks Rob.

Any other offers, anyone?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Rob Loxley — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:47:10 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

So far, my list is...

What else?

[/quote] Medical insurance?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 11:09:01 GMT

A little update:

Trying to take everyone's views into account, we've started building salaries/benefits into job adverts.

The main points:

You will be able to display either a) 'Minimum offered, or b) a salary range
You will be able to display benefits from a selectable list of benefits which have a monetary value (car, pension, subscriptions, cpd, etc)
Displaying salary and benefits will be optional.
If you DO NOT display salary and benefits, it is designed so as not to look like there is a glaring hole (ie not penalising those who decide not to).
That said, there will likely be a benefit of displaying a min offer or salary range, in that it looks likely that Google will prioritise those that do, at some point in the future.
We'll see how it goes, but we may also add min offers and salary ranges to the listings pages.
Finally, the completely anecdotal feedback I get is that min offers and salary ranges are likely to be more important to veterinary nurses than VSs (lot of discussion and feedback about this over on VN, where some even say they ignore adverts that don't give some idea of remuneration).

Last thing ...

What benefits do you think I should allow advertisers to display?

So far, my list is (with wording precisely as below):

Car
Accommodation
CPD Allowance
Telephone
Subscriptions

What else?

I do not think free text is a good idea, BTW. Better to have a controlled list of things that have a monetary value, and if someone wants something added to that list, they can email us.

Obviously the list above cannot accurately place a value on the benefits (the car could be a roller or a Daf Variomatic 33; the accommodation could be a suite at the Ritz, or a tent), the point is to highlight that the salary is not all that is on offer.

Specifically, Michael Woodhouse, I added subscriptions from one of your earlier posts, and I presume you meant association subs (or did you mean magazine subs?).

Haven't included pension, as everyone is entitled to one of those, or holiday allowance, as that is a given too, and both these things can be detailed in the main advert if they are more generous than the norm.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Chris Milligan — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:47:07 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Directors are on the ultimate incentive scheme[/quote]

It's a double-edged sword. Whilst the profit margins of certain corporate clinics can be regarded as "healthy", and whilst many of those in charge drive jags and spend more time on holiday than most of their employees spend at work, there is a strong clinical argument for the standard of medicine pushed in a lot of corporate clinics - a loose standardisation that raises minimum standards and explores the patient's problem properly and in-depth.

Where this falls down is the economic reality of clients though said clinics never have to deal with these clients because they invariably never even bother turning up there because they can't afford what they're being offered - they go elsewhere. I worked in corporate practice for over a year - we (to my unending pleasure) never saw c-sections because the tightfisted dog-spawning community never came to us once word got round about the cost of our c-sections compared to other clinics in the area. Great times - saved me a lot of stress that did :D

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Edward Jones — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:56:20 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Of course, the whole system encourages poor clinical decisions[/quote]

Does that go for partners/directors who are paid out of the business profits? But yes, you need to design and monitor any 'bonus' scheme carefully.

[/quote]

Potentially, yes. Directors are on the ultimate incentive scheme, although they don't have anyone potentially breathing down their neck about it.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:12:23 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "create value".[/quote]

Some stuff about value:

Value can only be found by looking at the context or situation in which a

job exists. It cannot be found by looking at the content of the job itself.

The value of anything is “the difference” it makes.

There isn’t just one definition of this “difference”. Even when looking at

the same thing, at the same context, this definition changes depending

upon who you ask - value is in the eye of the beholder.

There are four main types of perception or coloured lenses through which

people see the world and through which they create their own definitions

of value/the “difference made”.

The only definitions of value that are important, or relevant, are those

which are based upon your perceptions (coloured lenses) and those of

your boss(es), clients, customers, or other key players that are involved in

the work that you do and/or impact what you’re trying to achieve.

This is a bit smug, but makes a point:

www.vetsurgeon.org/.../Hidden-Value-booklet-11.4.08_5F00_low.pdf

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:09:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] It seems JGW with his 'creating value' and previous post on 'the great lie' is more in tune with them than us Julie.[/quote]

Now, now, you know how exercised Mr Guthrie gets ( and you for that matter ) when suppositions like this are made.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]These people see us as losers[/quote]

Correct, in the sense of losing out, when there could be all that you have and more.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I see us, our staff and patients as winners.[/quote]

Well, you're entitled to your view, but is it sustainable and where does your business go when you can no longer sustain it?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Practice management is minimal, patient care, staff and (reasonable!) client satisfaction is maximum.[/quote]

...client satisfaction is maximum....hmmmmm. Have you measured any of this?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 16 Dec 2017 09:57:20 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

[quote user="J G Wray"][sigh] As George, John Sheridan and all who came after make the point, you are there to create value, and, if you recall, according to the public that happens 70% of the time. It's something for some to work on.[/quote]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "create value". And I'm not sure that IS what I am here for- surely I'm here to try to diagnose and treat animals? (I'm not being facetious, I genuinely don't understand!)

[/quote]Having been to some practice management seminars, including ones by John Sheridan, although I would not point the finger at him specifically, they all are focused on making money with good patient care and client relationships secondary to that, they are only important if they affect the bottom line. Whether these people became vets because they wanted to work with animals and lost their raison d'etre on the way, or saw it was a way to make money with lesser regard for animal health from the start I'm not sure, but it seems that to a man (they are nearly always men) they are genuinely surprised, almost shocked, that some of us became vets because we are driven to help animals and actually enjoy that, with making a living being just a convenient byproduct. It seems JGW with his 'creating value' and previous post on 'the great lie' is more in tune with them than us Julie. These people see us as losers. I see us, our staff and patients as winners.

This is probably the single most important factor in me wanting to become sole-charge and why my nurses are so motivated. If they don't think what I'm doing is in the interests of the patients, even if its going to make a shed load of money which they can share, they will tell me so and will, with my encouragement, tell unreasonable clients the truth about themselves even if it means losing them. Practice management is minimal, patient care, staff and (reasonable!) client satisfaction is maximum.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Rob Loxley — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 23:28:59 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Of course, the whole system encourages poor clinical decisions[/quote]

Does that go for partners/directors who are paid out of the business profits? But yes, you need to design and monitor any 'bonus' scheme carefully.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Julie Innes — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 16:37:37 GMT

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:31:53 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]That's why I say that an applicant who was primarily interested in salary might not be the best fit for us. (I don't think I pay under the odds, by the way! Just that I would like someone to be attracted to the job itself first and foremost and to discuss money later)[/quote]I've only advertised for one assistant when I was going to expand but the deal for the new practice premises fell though so in the end I didn't, but the best applicant was happy to take less to get the job because he liked the practice ethos. Ditto my current nurses (they are paid well incidentally) say that they would rather be paid less and work for me and one actually refused a pay rise because she felt I couldn't afford it (I gave the rise regardless). Another one was offered more elsewhere but came to us because she'd done long term work experience and liked the atmosphere and practice protocol. She has a degree in IT by the way but loves vet nursing and is happy to paid far less than she could earn in that profession - that is the sort of person we need to nurture and not leave her disillusioned.

I expect that's one star again for blowing my own trumpet.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:53:29 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I'm an (older!) employer, and I don't believe the priority for vets should be maximising return to the practice, but rather doing the job well. If money is the priority, that filters through to clients, and they feel that that is "all they are interested in", so no matter how well you do the job they don't trust you.[/quote]

[sigh] As George, John Sheridan and all who came after make the point, you are there to create value, and, if you recall, according to the public that happens 70% of the time. It's something for some to work on.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Julie Innes — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:03:03 GMT

I don't see that as a problem, to be honest. I'm an (older!) employer, and I don't believe the priority for vets should be maximising return to the practice, but rather doing the job well. If money is the priority, that filters through to clients, and they feel that that is "all they are interested in", so no matter how well you do the job they don't trust you. If you do a good job, you get a good reputation, which in turn means you can charge properly and reasonably without insisting that assistants do however many blood tests/ xrays etc. Like many other vets (Michael, Martin), money isn't the driving motivation for me. I once took a large pay cut to move from a job in a corporate which made me miserable to one in an independent practice where I stayed for 10 years, and I never regretted it. That's why I say that an applicant who was primarily interested in salary might not be the best fit for us. (I don't think I pay under the odds, by the way! Just that I would like someone to be attracted to the job itself first and foremost and to discuss money later)

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:10:31 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]Within the profession there is also a pretty firm desire amongst younger employees to set about saving the client money, as opposed to maximising returns for the practice. In the vast majority of VS, so the received wisdom goes, there is not a yearning hunger to charge and earn more and more, rather the deep motivator is to “Make the diagnosis”, which is an academic approach.[/quote]

George and others, like John Sheridan, have been making these points for at least the last twenty five years and little has changed. It's as if each new generation fails to learn from....

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:09:02 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I do appreciate that as an individual I'm not really driven by money, if I can afford to do what I want to then I'm happy. [/quote]

Then there's the Great Lie to Oneself, because without profitable practice none of these other things are available to you.

[/quote]I sometimes wonder at what point I stopped lying to myself about my inertia/fear of expanding and realised that being happy in my work was more important than being rich and that basically I didn't want the hassle of managing a multi-vet/multi-centre practice. Maybe I'm still lying or maybe deep down I never wanted it but felt guilty about not being ambitious.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

George Cooper — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:52:22 GMT

Arlo asked about “performance related pay” in the profession.

My understanding of this concept is that it is doomed from the start, and there are a few reasons why, one of which is that, over time, it simply becomes “the norm” and loses any sense of incentive for the individual. Also, if one year the ‘target’ is not made, the subsequent reduction in the usual pay (including the normal bonus) becomes a bone of contention.

Within the profession there is also a pretty firm desire amongst younger employees to set about saving the client money, as opposed to maximising returns for the practice. In the vast majority of VS, so the received wisdom goes, there is not a yearning hunger to charge and earn more and more, rather the deep motivator is to “Make the diagnosis”, which is an academic approach.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:40:04 GMT

Right, where do I start....

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I may be a terrible business man[/quote]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]turnover is really only 1 aspect of this in my opinion[/quote]

It never was the only as part of performance related anything, so ..?

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I don't want to work with someone who makes me lots of money but I don't trust their clinical judgement[/quote]

This is not a binary, either/or choice

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]and I can't stand to be around.[/quote]

It works both ways and yes, a rebel is a PITA to work with, so don't choose them, weed them out.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It much harder to measure how much I like you, an how do I put a price on someone I can trust with the practice and go away on holiday?[/quote]

There are ways of doing this, which Helen Frewin for instance is v strong on.

https://vpma-spvs-events.co.uk/cpd-2017/appraisals-and-recruitment/

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I do appreciate that as an individual I'm not really driven by money, if I can afford to do what I want to then I'm happy. [/quote]

This is OK, but is it the whole profit you take from your practice. Do you take time for instance, do you take pride in your work, what else is there that you get from being in practice? No one I know works exclusively for the money, so where's the argument?

Then there's the Great Lie to Oneself, because without profitable practice none of these other things are available to you. There is, as I have said before, a moral imperative to have a profitable practice for your self, your employees and your clients.

Try running a practice that doesn't make a profit and the Great Lie to Oneself vanishes overnight.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:41:55 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Performance is theoretically easier to be transparent about. Does anyone offer performance-related bonuses?[/quote]

I may be a terrible business man but turnover is really only 1 aspect of this in my opinion. I don't want to work with someone who makes me lots of money but I don't trust their clinical judgement and I can't stand to be around. It much harder to measure how much I like you, an how do I put a price on someone I can trust with the practice and go away on holiday?

I do appreciate that as an individual I'm not really driven by money, if I can afford to do what I want to then I'm happy. If the practice is overall profitable, we gel, compliment each others skills then I'm quite happy. If money was my main motivation then I wouldn't have chosen to be a vet.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

J G Wray — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 21:52:19 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]the floor is now yours [/quote]

Is this within your gift?

Since the subject is transparency in salaries, I just thought it would be nice to know what salaries we are all paying for. We could compare them to our lot in practice.

I'm pretty sure there are Councillors who know what RCVS staffers are paid, especially the Treasurer.

Maybe we don't pay enough to retain Registrars and Chief Executives

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Sarah McGurk — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 21:50:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Take your point, but I'm sitting here wondering whether 'transparency' has to come with 'rigid pay scales'.

[/quote]

No it doesn't. In Norway, there’s a base wage guidance for vets, nurses and ‘assistants’ (who might be receptionists or auxiliaries in the UK). However it’s not compulsory to stick to the scale. Some practices opt in, but not all. I understand most vets earn more than the base, especially if they do any night work. It’s also very common for vets to be a part of a bigger group, but to receive no base pay, but instead get a percentage of what they earn.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 19:43:55 GMT

Aww JW , I was enjoying that discussion too. Never mind , the floor is now yours

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 19:43:13 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Take your point, but I'm sitting here wondering whether 'transparency' has to come with 'rigid pay scales'.[/quote]

Well as part of the Open Government initiative you can go to almost any Department, Ministry or Agency and see who works there and their salary band

e.g.

https://data.gov.uk/organogram/veterinary-medicines-directorate

just hover over the post

Ironically, you can't do this for that organisation which Dr Tapsfield-Wright was a Council member of for sooooooo long, the one committed to transparency and a supplier of services to, err, the VMD.

Transparency can mean whatever the hell you want it to

[/quote]