References

RE: References

Anthony Todd — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 15:04:03 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Best advice, IMHO, is to get a prospective employee to "locum" for a week or two.[/quote]

While this might sound like a great idea to the employer I would be very reluctant to agree to this as a prospective employee. If I am in a full time job but looking for a new position, I'm not likely to hand my notice in to my current employer and take the risk that I might only get a couple of weeks work and then be unemployed.

[/quote]

Well obviously... but it cuts both ways. How often has a job been presented at interview, somewhat differently from reality!

I was suggesting best case and, BTW, a lot of our vets were ex locums.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:59:24 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Best advice, IMHO, is to get a prospective employee to "locum" for a week or two.[/quote]I've never employed an assistant but nearly always call for a reference for locums unless I know them. One had received a rather non-committal but wary reference from a local practice so I invited him to perform a cat spay during his interview. It was an unmitigated disaster so I'm pleased I'd done that otherwise I would have left him in sole charge for 2 weeks.

RE: References

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 08:46:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Best advice, IMHO, is to get a prospective employee to "locum" for a week or two.[/quote]

RE: References

Sarah McGurk — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 20:08:51 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Best advice, IMHO, is to get a prospective employee to "locum" for a week or two.

[/quote]

I got my first job in Norway after «seeing practice» for two weeks. They didn’t even bother with references, which is rare here.

RE: References

Anthony Todd — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:56:07 GMT

Lived to regret it!

And another from a very respected veterinary source which I regretted even more!

Best advice, IMHO, is to get a prospective employee to "locum" for a week or two.

RE: References

Sarah McGurk — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 10:54:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I also always make a point of talking to someone rather that rely on a written reference and then the principal vet rather than a practice manager, and as it is often a nurse who answers the phone try and trick them into giving away a few hints - that has paid dividends in some cases!

[/quote]

I don't know how anyone could see this as being unreasonable. If I'm ringing up about a job, I would always try to speak to other staff to find out what it might be like to work there and I would definitely listen hard during any phone conversation with a receptionist (for example) to try to get a feel for the likely atmosphere. Hugely important to work out whether a new employee/practice will be a good fit.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Got a coded warning once "I didn't like the way he said goodbye" which I ignored......

[/quote]Were you right to ignore it, or did you live to regret it?

RE: References

Anthony Todd — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:20:54 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]During that time they have worked entirely to their own satisfaction"[/quote]

Or "worked well only under direct supervision"

PS I understand that if a reference contains anything negative it can be actionable by the referee?

I believe many large companies now just state start and finish of employment dates..... full stop.

My approach was always, and only, orally to the employer, and I always advised potential employees to talk privately to any of my staff.

Got a coded warning once "I didn't like the way he said goodbye" which I ignored......

RE: References

Iain Richards — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:49:21 GMT

I always fancied being able to write, "To whom it may concern, X has been employed here for the last three years. During that time they have worked entirely to their own satisfaction"

RE: References

Michael Coe — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:45:07 GMT

Thank you for being supportive and I am here to help smaller practices to succeed. If you need assistance just ask. I have been blogging on here now for 6 years and have given good education to those who want to accept it,as well as writing in the forums.

Also all of you in this forum have "free will and choices",so let's move forward and put this nicely. If you don't want to go on a course, then don't go. All other individuals advertise on this site under CPD. I mentioned this as I am passionate about keeping business compliant thats all.

If you do want to go on a course then just come along and learn some interesting facts and information. This can count towards your CPD.

The choice is yours. But please be respectful of my professional experience and qualifications outside of your fields of expertise. I am very well qualified to give education on this subject matter.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:24:58 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Whilst Mr Coe may have some commercial interests, he has imparted some interesting and salient points, at length on this forum already,[/quote]I quite agree but he is pushing his seminar a bit too much. By pointing this out I can't see how this will affect others from joining the forum.

RE: References

Bob Russell — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:05:13 GMT

Rarely five star Davis Mills but totally with him on this one!

Smaller practices (and many larger ones) will not have the resources to deal with these legislation changes without proper guidance. It is something that BVA should really be on top of (also the RCVS) but it is invaluable to have someone here that is able to provide some guidance.

The big boys will have people there to deal with changes in legislation. The rest of us have to muddle along doing our best to comply.

I don't feel particularly exposed in this situation as most pressure will be on large companies but a small business is more vulnerable should there be penalties issued.

The wider the range of help here the better and it goes without saying that everyone has a right to make a living!

RE: References

David Mills — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:55:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Michael Coe"]This is "why" it is so important to understand your legal obligations under GDPR Regulations.[/quote]Couldn't be that we need to go on your course on 7th December could it Michael?

[/quote]

I find this quite distasteful.

Whilst Mr Coe may have some commercial interests, he has imparted some interesting and salient points, at length on this forum already, which have seemingly embarrassed some of the less professional members who are now sniping back.

Time to get a grip on this Mr G, if you want new forum members and a wider subject matter.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:50:57 GMT

RE: References

Michael Coe — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:32:09 GMT

I am sure most employees will give a rounded answer about past employees. This is the risk which is taken by many on a daily basis,with or without your knowledge as the Employer. In today's fast competitive world, situations at work happen and legal action can take place. A settlement can take place behind closed doors between the Employer and Employee. The risk here of further legal action is where "legally binding settlement agreements" have been signed. The employee you are asking may not be privileged to such information and may breach your settlement agreement, without knowing that they are providing such information.

Another consideration is that "Bullying" may have taken place and inaccurate information gleaned by employeeS is not accurate. Some employees may be vexatious in their actions against another past employee.

In this event, it does not excuse your Employer duties or that of your actions of your employees, so both parties can be claimed against.

This is "why" it is so important to understand your legal obligations under GDPR Regulations.

RE: References

Michael Coe — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:13:50 GMT

"Protected conversations" are not the same as "Without prejudice conversations". These two areas get confused very often. Each situation will be different and the usage of such "conversations"weighed up on implementing their usage in terms of employment law / rights etc must be carefully considered. ACAS have rules on these types of conversation and their limitations and protections in litigation. Employment laws are complex. Each situation must be weighed up carefully as how to proceed.

RE: References

Bob Russell — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:54:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I would only give a reference after checking with the employee.[/quote]Even if they've already left?

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Why on earth would you want to talk to a "practice manager" about it?[/quote]I wouldn't, but sometimes that is who you are put through to, especially with corporates.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Mean, dirty, unprofessional.[/quote]Nah, slightly underhand maybe, but you have a better chance of getting the truth!

[/quote]

If someone has already left then I would not expect to offer a reference. I expect to be informed if someone wishes to use me as a reference. It is only good manners!

If a new employer were to approach me then I would limit my conversation to the basics. I have always been informed beforehand by ex-staff members.

It was fun filling in the form for one staff member that left to work in administration with a very senior member of a highly classified organisation.

Nothing compared to the questioning she received from a slightly odd person involved in 'security'! Apparently not one aspect of her personal life that was not 'dissected' in detail. She was no shrinking violet and I suspect she was perfectly happy to discuss this and let all the home computers be checked!

Think we have a problem with references?

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:24:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Coe"] it is unwise to try and "Trick" individuals in the practice to try and "fish" for information[/quote]I used the word 'trick' but it was used loosely I would ask a question and if someone wants to volunteer then that's their choice there's not misleading going on. After all you're much more likley to get a well rounded answer from fellow employees than the boss although both can be biased so its good to get as many opinions as possible.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:20:40 GMT

[quote user="Michael Coe"]It is wise to be upfront and ask the "new employee" in a protected conversation if you have doubts about their past employment history. Rules about "protected conversations" are strict and must be followed,these can be found online.[/quote]Are these the same as 'without prejudice' meetings? It always concerned me that these can be considered truly protected if someone wants to blab what was said later, it was said after all and nothing can be above the law.

RE: References

Michael Coe — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 14:52:29 GMT

The giving of references does depend on the size of the practice / organisation in question. Written references have always carried a risk of legal action. Many employers will give a basic reference but it is not a legal requirement to do so. Just because a reference is not given; does not mean it should be assumed that the ex- employee is guilty of bad behaviour.

Again this is an HR issue that is debated at all levels of business. The Data Protection Act 1998 enables references to be seen by the employee,once it has left the past employer. They can make a "subject access request" to see this in their file. Legal action happens when the individual finds inaccurate or vexatious information which may be untrue provided by the reference provider.

However, the new GDPR Regulation being introduced in May 2018 will require "Consent" of the individual to process this information. New legal rights will be introduced around this area of Employment law. So be prepared for new ways of legislation in this area on processing.

To answer the first part of your question the current Data Protection laws do cover references and the data,information supplied via "Subject access Requests". However, the new GDPR Regulation will require "Consent" in this area of Employment law from the "Individual" to process this information.

Secondly, it is unwise to try and "Trick" individuals in the practice to try and "fish" for information regarding the new employee, either before or after hiring over the phone or through industry contacts. Verbal conversations do count in law regarding references by any individual of your team. It has been "case law" that in this instance, the information provided by another individual from the past employer has not been accurate; causing damage to the individual changing employer, regarding their new employment.The employee or candidate has then sued the new/ past employer around a number of areas covered by Employment Law.

It is wise to be upfront and ask the "new employee" in a protected conversation if you have doubts about their past employment history. Rules about "protected conversations" are strict and must be followed,these can be found online.

It is always a good idea to be strict about your collection and giving of references. If you choose not to give references then this is your policy.

In this situation as the new hiring employer, it is best to speak with your new employee first hand.

Unfortunately many work situations do happen to individuals. There may be other legal reasons as to why a reference is not provided. Fishing for information without "consent" may land you and your team in legal action under DPA 1998.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 14:27:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I would only give a reference after checking with the employee.[/quote]Even if they've already left?

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Mean, dirty, unprofessional.[/quote]Nah, slightly underhand maybe, but you have a better chance of getting the truth!

RE: References

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:49:17 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I also always make a point of talking to someone rather that rely on a written reference and then the principal vet rather than a practice manager,[/quote]

Why on earth would you want to talk to a "practice manager" about it?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]as it is often a nurse who answers the phone try and trick them[/quote]

Mean, dirty, unprofessional.

RE: References

Bob Russell — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:39:07 GMT

I would only give a reference after checking with the employee. I would never refuse to give one nor would I comment to the person asking for the reference.

'Leave it with me' works well in most cases.

RE: References

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:35:17 GMT

[quote user="ola jankowska"]as it turns up, my candidate decided withdraw her application, makes me wonder if it was reference related[/quote]Or maybe they realised her value and gave her an offer she couldn't refuse.

[quote user="ola jankowska"]I always check them. I also had a few employees with not good references and they turned to be the best ever- jut shows diversity and what suits one practice not always do the same for others.[/quote]I wonder how this relates to the current debate on perceived bullying which may in many instances be down to inter-personnel relationships and personality clashes.

I also always make a point of talking to someone rather that rely on a written reference and then the principal vet rather than a practice manager, and as it is often a nurse who answers the phone try and trick them into giving away a few hints - that has paid dividends in some cases!

[quote user="ola jankowska"]I am always very careful not to call recent employment just in case if person in question did not handed notice yet[/quote]I would always check with the applicant if they minded if I called their current employer in this case. However, if they refused I would be suspicious as to why.

RE: References

ola jankowska — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:37:55 GMT

Yes ,totally agree references not always help but as a principal (I learnt hard way before) I always check them. I also had a few employees with not good references and they turned to be the best ever- jut shows diversity and what suits one practice not always do the same for others. In this particular case my candidate was no longer working there(I am always very careful not to call recent employment just in case if person in question did not handed notice yet)

RE: References

ola jankowska — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:16:17 GMT

Yes, but as it turns up, my candidate decided withdraw her application, makes me wonder if it was reference related...