Backdating morals!

RE: Backdating morals!

Sarah McGurk — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 13:01:54 GMT

It's very easy to say that people shouldn't report those things, but if they have occurred and made someone uncomfortable, and especially if they were carried out by people in power, then I think people have the right to report.

I am wary of accusing anyone of bandwagon jumping. There is a long history of some men using their positions of power to gain gratification at the expense of others . Regardless of whether the allegations are ones that you consider serious, then unless such things are brought into the open and talked about with honesty, then they continue to be brushed under the carpet and those who act that way feel free to continue.

There's a small possibility the accusations may have been spurious, but in the majority of cases, I suspect the women are speaking the truth. They may have felt unable to do so at an earlier time for fear of negative effects on their own situation, but continued to feel troubled. The wave of other women speaking out has allowed them to gain the confidence they lacked before.

If Mr Sargeant touched or spoke to them them inappropriately, then they had the right to report it. I feel sorry for his family too, but I still wouldn't lay the blame for his actions at the door of these women.

I don't imagine that these accusations were the only thing that caused him to commit suicide. They may have been the final straw, but on their own, unless he knew they were serious, it seems unlikely they were the only cause. Many other people have dealt with very serious accusations without taking their own lives. I don't think anyone should feel guilty for coming forward on the grounds that something desperately sad occurred as a result. They could not have predicted his reaction and his reaction is not their fault.

RE: Backdating morals!

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 12:35:37 GMT

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]Was this rhetorical Martin? Could anyone really suppose these women would feel victorious? Even to insinuate that would be a sickening slur. I have very little doubt that these women will be struggling with feelings of guilt, but if they were genuinely disturbed by what he did and reported their experiences honestly, then they should not because they have done nothing wrong. [/quote]I was more concerned with the possibility that these accusations were spurious or of such a trivial matter which clearly wasn't important enough to report originally but they're now jumping on the bandwagon. If they were indeed of a geunuinely serious matter: rape or serious sexual assault rather than just a bit of dirty talk or knee touching then I have little sympathy for him but feel very sorry for his family.

RE: Backdating morals!

Sarah McGurk — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 09:12:23 GMT

There was a piece in the Guardian by Deborah Orr this morning that rang very true for me. This whole topic has become so hysterical in some sections of the media (not here on the forum. This discussion has been very civil) that I was glad to read something that seemed like common sense.

I wanted to quote a section.

«Sargeant’s grieving family say that the Labour party did not give Sargeant the pastoral care that he needed, after he had been placed under so much strain. In the light of events, this criticism seems unanswerable. I don’t think it’s only the Labour party that needs to learn lessons, though. People need to be able to make allegations of sexual misconduct without fear. Conversely, mere allegations should not be feared so greatly that people’s lives are destroyed by them. Especially at this time, when the societal rules about permissible behaviour are being painfully redrawn.»

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Yes I wonder how his accusers are feeling now - victorious or guilty?

[/quote]

Was this rhetorical Martin? Could anyone really suppose these women would feel victorious? Even to insinuate that would be a sickening slur. I have very little doubt that these women will be struggling with feelings of guilt, but if they were genuinely disturbed by what he did and reported their experiences honestly, then they should not because they have done nothing wrong. The systems should be in place to deal with these kinds of allegations without destroying the lives of either party. Indeed Bob put it perfectly in the post above yours.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Trial by newspaper, trial by hearsay, trial by gossip, trial by social media is not fair nor acceptable.

If anything comes out of this mess it should be an informal complaints system where both parties can get a fair hearing or a fast-track to the Police.

[/quote]

RE: Backdating morals!

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 21:39:09 GMT

Perhaps I should reconsider concentrating on farm work............

RE: Backdating morals!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 20:03:12 GMT

There were always various young women who would deliberately try to embarrass or provoke the young male veterinary surgeon. Wearing bib-and-brace dungarees with nothing underneath. Wearing very low necklines and leaning very low over the table to hold Tiddles.

Then there were the three young women who attended upon me when I attended a horse – I was fully clothed of course, but they were all in bikinis of a brief or cursory nature.

That must have been miso-something or other, surely.

RE: Backdating morals!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 15:59:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] Ian has a client who always has her cleavage exposed and stubbornly clasps her small dogs tight to her chest for their examination.[/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I had a client and more alarmingly her young daughter that insisted on wearing these and with a pet on the table totally in my eye-line. [/quote]

Only one of each, I'd feel deprived with only that much exposure/flirting. You do become quite an expert on bras and thongs though. ;-)

RE: Backdating morals!

Bob Russell — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 14:31:55 GMT

But at least those jeans that barely cover the bits have gone out of fashion.

I had a client and more alarmingly her young daughter that insisted on wearing these and with a pet on the table totally in my eye-line. Not often I feel uncomfortable in my own consult room but this was certainly the case here!

RE: Backdating morals!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 13:28:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I wondered if in the light of the current moral witch-hunt if she thought it was sexist![/quote]

erm, no, I doubt she did.

That was a perfectly innocent remark, where no harm was done and the comment was appropriate to the situation.

Nobody is trying to sanitise life. But I guess, unless you are aware of the constant misogyny and sexism women put up with (and mostly ignore), it is hard to understand how annoying it can become.

I do know that men get put in difficult situations sometimes.... Ian has a client who always has her cleavage exposed and stubbornly clasps her small dogs tight to her chest for their examination. It obviously just amuses him....but I could see occasion where, if she chose to, she could probably accuse him of touching her inappropriately. Men who mean no harm do have to be cautious, which is a shame.

RE: Backdating morals!

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 12:51:57 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I observed interesting behaviour at the cinema the other night when I went to see 'Murder on the Orient Express'. There were quite a few couples in the cinema. I noticed mainly middle aged couples but also one young couple do this thing. When the film was over the man would lead the women out of the aisle, sort of stop the flow of traffic and then kind of herd the women in front of him up the stairs and out with his hands on her arms/back. Is this sort of normal courtship behaviour? I didn't like the look of it. I have a feeling it's this sort of thing that makes me feel like I'm one of those "rampant militant feminists". It's such a small thing but one of many that gets on my nerves.[/quote]

Interesting that you noticed that it was always the man going out first and then holding up the flow to let the woman out, I have seen it the other way as well. The main reason I would do it would be so that my wife and I don't get separated and can walk out together.

RE: Backdating morals!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 10:30:25 GMT

I was out running last night using a circuit around the estate where I live and met the same woman who was running round the opposite way several times. As we crossed the third time I said 'we'll have to stop meeting this way'. She chuckled, then I wondered if in the light of the current moral witch-hunt if she thought it was sexist!

RE: Backdating morals!

Bibs — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 09:47:47 GMT

I observed interesting behaviour at the cinema the other night when I went to see 'Murder on the Orient Express'. There were quite a few couples in the cinema. I noticed mainly middle aged couples but also one young couple do this thing. When the film was over the man would lead the women out of the aisle, sort of stop the flow of traffic and then kind of herd the women in front of him up the stairs and out with his hands on her arms/back. Is this sort of normal courtship behaviour? I didn't like the look of it. I have a feeling it's this sort of thing that makes me feel like I'm one of those "rampant militant feminists". It's such a small thing but one of many that gets on my nerves. Giving someone with greater need your seat on a bus is just nice. Offering to a young and fit women who is not struggling is just condescending.

I know it's difficult sometimes because some women love the damsel in distress thing, and also expect chivalry. In my experience I don't get on with those women very much and they tend to be unimpressive to me in their general qualities. I have one acquaintance who recently got in a relationship with a man mainly because she loved the fact he was so polite and chivalrous. A few months down the line she had to get the police involved because he had physically assaulted her and stalked her by tracking her phone. It's not all that.

I really do think the time as come to try and treat people equally. Be nice and police by all means but do it for everyone the same. Touching is not needed.

RE: Backdating morals!

Bob Russell — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 09:19:21 GMT

I would not offer a seat based on the persons sex, I would offer it on the grounds of their greater need.

Had those considering this low level misogyny not consider it just being nice?

RE: Backdating morals!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 09 Nov 2017 07:30:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]easier and safer just to offer any "lay" a seat[/quote]

It's the least you can do

[/quote]

Funniest quote ive read all year!

RE: Backdating morals!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 23:29:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]easier and safer just to offer any "lay" a seat[/quote]

It's the least you can do

RE: Backdating morals!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 23:22:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I thought that until one day I asked a lay with a belly when her baby was due......[/quote]

That's why it's easier and safer just to offer any "lay" a seat.......... [resisted any more banter]

Then again I recently discussed a building matter with the owner and referred to his [large] wife as his "mother".....

RE: Backdating morals!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 23:11:45 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]With my scientific training and acute observation I can usually tell the difference[/quote]

I thought that until one day I asked a lady with a belly when her baby was due......

They were staying on a farm in a holiday cottage and watching me do a cow caesarean. I said it the first time and she never answered, so I turned to face her and asked again. Oh well.

[quote user="vs0u "]I would not like any of these actions from anyone apart from my husband[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting they were ideal, but who's to say that our actions today when judged in 20 years will seem equally socially unacceptable? That was the point I was perhaps making badly.

[quote user="vs0u "]Much prefer a bit of inappropriate banter - at least that can be funny.[/quote]

I agree. Very much so.

RE: Backdating morals!

vs0u — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 21:45:08 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Can I put my hand on the shoulder of an upset colleague or client? Can I direct someone by placing my hand on their back? Can I gently nudge a colleague on the shoulder with a closed fist? Can I reposition a vet students hands when practising suturing on a suture pad?[/quote]

I would not like any of these actions from anyone apart from my husband. Particularly being pushed around with someone's hand in my back. Ick! People very rarely do this though. I can think of 2 people who are in the habit of it and both of them are creepy.

Much prefer a bit of inappropriate banter - at least that can be funny.

RE: Backdating morals!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 21:02:12 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]I have never been offered a seat due to being female (this is a bit of a minefield because it could be construed that you think she is old/pregnant....)[/quote]

With my scientific training and acute observation I can usually tell the difference but, with that sort of reply, I can see why "feminism", if that is the right term, is so rampant today.

Sometimes some humans are just polite, so why turn that gesture into some sort of sexist crusade?

And the rest.... part of a very crude, obvious, not very funny, Carry On Vetting 2017??

Offensive on any level. Tell them ['cos no fun on his own] to leave, yuk!!

RE: Backdating morals!

Stephanie Wellings — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:59:31 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Who now offers a their seat to women on public transport?

[/quote]

I have never been offered a seat due to being female (this is a bit of a minefield because it could be construed that you think she is old/pregnant....)

Even if those kind of ‘gentlemanly’ behaviours are unnecessary, they are unlikely to be offensive - and I would be fairly unsympathetic if people claimed to be offended by that sort of thing (although I will admit that I raise my eyebrows when the waiter invariably hands my husband the card machine after we eat out together....)

I think there is a lot of low level misogyny in society that men don’t see, and I would describe it as annoying, but definitely not in the same league as any assault (example - I examine big dogs on the floor because I can’t lift them, and on a fairly regular basis I get comments along the lines of ‘I do like to see a girl on her knees’, ‘Is it my turn next‘ when taking rectal temperature, etc etc) Inappropriate and unoriginal, but I’m not going to expend the energy in dealing with/reporting it.

The thing that makes me sad with the things in the press is, if these men did those things, the women chose not to report it and other women were then in the same situation. Not blaming the victims, but it would have been more likely to result in a conviction and stopping further incidents if they had reported it at the time.

RE: Backdating morals!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:46:49 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But several times on the Tube a young lady has offered her seat to me.[/quote]

Me too, and it makes me feel suddenly, positively, geriatric!!

[I think mothers with brats who sit there smugly with their kids playing next to them annoy me more on a crowded train; London Overground seems the worse.]

PS I still feel uncomfortable not walking on the outside of the pavement with a lady but a I can't hear if I'm on her left....

RE: Backdating morals!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:25:53 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Who now offers a their seat to women on public transport?

[/quote]

I do.

But several times on the Tube a young lady has offered her seat to me.

RE: Backdating morals!

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:25:51 GMT

I would if I believed they really needed it more than I do.

I would not just give it up because someone was female. I suspect they would think me odd nowadays.

RE: Backdating morals!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:21:58 GMT

At 67 I would hope a younger woman would offer me her's!

RE: Backdating morals!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:19:22 GMT

Who now offers a their seat to women on public transport?

RE: Backdating morals!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 17:08:38 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I held the door open for her.[/quote]

It used to be said "If a man opened the door for a girl either the girl's new or the car is".....