Views on probation periods etc

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Louise Hudson-Reeve — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 12:19:43 GMT

Sounds like you're having a rough time of it, James! Firstly I would seek additional HR advice as there are ways to dismiss someone if they are causing chaos within the team. It could go down the capability route since behaving respectfully towards team members is expected in any role... I'm no HR expert so I'll stop there, but I would strongly advise additional legal advice. How is she in her day-to-day job?

[quote user="james buick"]

There have also been reports that she has discussed a client with learning difficulties with another client, describing him as 'a nuisance' and 'slow minded.'

[/quote]

This is a huge red flag and surely grounds for some form of action. It displays a total lack of respect for clients and does not reflect well on your practice.

Best of luck.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 17:27:46 GMT

Get it done quickly before she announces she's pregnant.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 05:08:28 GMT

Whoever gave you legal advice needs to shift off the fence.

You have a choice -

1 - Try and mediate between her and other staff and eventually be left with her and no existing staff and a toxic environment in which to work - because if she is like that now , she will just get worse. More difficult to remove her later and lots of paperwork and time, but possible as these characters can't change and she will repeat offend.

2 - Dismiss her now

Easy decision

In a probationary period zero tolerance is the best policy - that's what it is there for.

Harsh but true

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 15:57:58 GMT

OK you can say that there will be an appraisal after a certain period of time and in my practice that would be at 13 weeks which is when you have to give employees a statement of terms and conditions. As an employee I'd like to believe I had a degree of security and couldn't be summarily dismissed or otherwise their is less incentive to work and it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The main reason many employers have a probationary period is in the mistaken belief that it gives them the ability to dismiss but in fact you are already protected by law and if you issue a contract with a fixed probationary period you are tying your own hands, giving the employee some ammunition for unfair dismissal and make it difficult for yourself.

[quote user="Utlendigur"]But that isn't the only way staff can be dismissed surely? [/quote]Correct, in the first 2 years you do not have to give any reason, the employee effectively has no rights unless you have a fixed term contract, just a statutory minimum period of notice which I believe is 1 week for each year of service. Its one of the few situations where the employer has more rights than the employee.

Once again, it is better to have no contract than a bad contract.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Utlendigur — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 15:56:42 GMT

[quote user="james buick"]While the behaviour is unacceptable (and there are other things) it’s not really grounds for dismissal On gross misconduct. [/quote]

But that isn't the only way staff can be dismissed surely? What does the contract say eg requiring staff to maintain good relations with colleagues, which could (should?) have been brought up during her reviews as a performance issue (and hopefully documented).

I worked in a practice with a receptionist who sounds similar and everyone suffered - colleagues, clients and patients. She fell out with virtually every member of staff, threw tantrums, refused to follow instructions putting patients at risk and worse. Sometimes she refused to speak to a member of staff that she had fallen out with - even to the extent of not telling vets that emergencies were waiting. She was one factor in my deciding to leave. The problem was never tackled despite the effects it was having - her behaviour escalated as the years went by.

You need to do something because the problem is not going to sort itself out.

Even if you did get sued - and how likely is it, how much would it cost if it did happen - you need to balance that against the costs of staff off sick with stress, recruitment costs for the increased staff turnover, possibly losing clients because I can't see reception being a friendly welcoming atmosphere etc

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Rob Loxley — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:49:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Probationary periods are a waste of time[/quote]

Is there no use in focusing people's minds that the job is still in early stages, that both sides need to deliver what they offered at the start of the job, at that there will be some appraisal of how things are progressing at a set point, and the job is not yet 'fully permanent'?

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:09:01 GMT

[quote user="Phil R."]

"In most circumstances employees will need to qualify before they can make a complaint to an employment tribunal:

at least one year's continuous service for employees in employment before 6th April 2012
two years for employees starting employment on or after 6th April 2012."

[/quote]This is why you don't need a probationary period or a reason for dismissal.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

easy307 — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 13:28:23 GMT

Phone ACAS on their helpline.

"In most circumstances employees will need to qualify before they can make a complaint to an employment tribunal:

at least one year's continuous service for employees in employment before 6th April 2012
two years for employees starting employment on or after 6th April 2012."

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1797

To be safe, dismiss with reasons for dismissal stated in writing.

All is fine so long as there is no discrimination involved.

Probation periods are irrelevant to dismissal.

The purpose of a probation period in a contract usually relates to differing notice periods required before and after the probation period ends.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Julie Innes — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 09:08:59 GMT

Ouch! As an employer in a small practice you have my sympathies.

It does sound as though this person should go. Could you take her aside and ask how she feels things have been going during her probationary period, before "coming to the mutual decision" that she is not a good fit for your team? (Coward here!)

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 09:01:43 GMT

Probationary periods are a waste of time and non-enforceable. You don't need them, you can dismiss this person with no notice and no reason as she has been employed for less than 12 months. You cannot change poor attitude, as Malcolm intimates, get rid.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 08:48:45 GMT

We have always had probationary periods and over the years we have on several occasions given the "benefit of a doubt" to an employee who was not obviously up to the mark. On every one of those occasions we made a mistake.

Get rid or you will regret it.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Nick Taylor — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 08:35:47 GMT

Never nice having to make these tough decisions but a happy team is essential to the success of your business and wellbeing of your clients.

The whole point of probation is you can just say no thanks at the end.

And under the current law you can fire someone in their first two years of employment for no reason at all. As long as it is not on a discriminatory basis (i.e. sex, age, race etc..).

In my various roles I have done this several times and despite the employee believing they can sue, their consult with a solicitor quickly makes them realise they can't unless they have ben discriminated against.

So I would say for the sake of your team, clients and business get rid quick.

Good luck

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Braden Collins — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 04:19:14 GMT

You need to get rid of this person, or she'll get rid of the staff you want to keep.

In Western Australia, you can sack someone at any point in their probation period - that's what it's for.

During a probation period, you need to be having frequent meetings and giving appropriate feedback. These meetings should all have written records produced. By doing that you are giving the staff member a fair chance to come up to your expectations (if you don't tell them they're falling short they might not realise), as well as providing evidence of problems and attempts to resolve them.

At the end of the day, your better off having a hole in the team than an a#sehole.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 23:54:01 GMT

I was suggesting you follow the correct procedures..but only to cover your arse. You can just get rid on the basis of lack of integration into the current team. Just do it quickly!

Be careful about this thread though...sacking her is actually pretty easy after only 6 months of employment..but this thread could be awkward if she sees/gets told about it.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

grumpyoldman — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 22:32:53 GMT

If you have it all documented,get rid . Even if she tribunals you and you loose the mitigation from her weird behaviour will limit any awards against you as well as the short time she has been employed. Some people are just not worth it. It takes time to find out about some peoples real personalities. The confidentiality breech on its own is gross misconduct. People get tied up in knots with these peninsula monkeys, they would have given Beverley Allett a final warning and six months further probation, just in case they lost the tribunal and had to cough up.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

james buick — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 22:32:38 GMT

Thank you. That’s very close to the advice I’ve been given.

I would say that’s the best option but I‘m concerned she fakes it until the end of the extension. Also that there are now two staff members who refuse to work with her!

The joys of employing people!

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 22:10:10 GMT

I would suggest that you follow the appropriate 'steps':

-a performance review, followed by an extension of probation to assess progress and schedule a later review, such as after 4 weeks. You need to be specific about what things you aren't happy with, and how the employee can improve.

-Then, unless significant change, you can give appropriate paid notice (a week usually during probation, but should be in the contract) which, if I'm honest, I wouldn't allow them to work.

Document the process and you'll be fine. To be honest, within the first 2 years you need little reason to dismiss...it gets much harder after that. However, these days I would give the employee chance to correct their behaviour if possible ...you never know -they might not know what they're doing wrong!!

HOWEVER, the above doesn't apply if the employee has special circumstances such as certain disabilities etc...so if you are in any doubt, consult a good HR lawyer.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

james buick — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 22:06:18 GMT

I thought so too but apparently you have to go through the process and have a reason based on performance. While the behaviour is unacceptable (and there are other things) it’s not really grounds for dismissal On gross misconduct.

I’m just concerned that I end up getting sued. Can’t do unfair dismissal but can do wrongful I think.

Ideally I would potentially offer written warning but to be honest at this stage I’d be scared she would straighten up her act and then revert when she had more rights.

legal advice so far has been from FSB

RE: Views on probation periods etc

Sammy82 — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 21:18:19 GMT

I thought you didn't need any real reason for dismissal (or handing in your notice) during the probation period? I thought that was the whole point of it.

RE: Views on probation periods etc

rhmrcvs — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 20:48:34 GMT

She sounds like a disaster. Where was your advice from ? You could extend the probationary period and advise that significant improvement in behaviour is required etc etc if standards aren't met then employment ends. Ideally get rid now but there are bizarrely hoops to jump through. Very ftustrating.