Sobering article about facebook ...

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

ih220 — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 17:54:12 GMT

Facebook has been invaluable for me as a way to contact other people around the world with the same rare condition my son has - the chances of randomly bumping into anyone with it is slim to none. Before he was born I was sure somewhere online there must be a group for it, but never thought to search on Facebook until I saw a comment under someone's youtube video mentioning the group. It's a closed group so in theory only members of the group can see the posts/pictures (although I still wouldn't put any personal details on there just in case). Interestingly the Facebook algorithms have failed to suitably interpret this as they then started advertising loads of other groups for other conditions which are not in any way relevant to me!

I have also bought a few secondhand baby items on it - useful to know people locally who are selling things I need. I did once lose something and found it by posting on the local facebook site to ask if anyone had seen it.

Also the preschool have a Facebook group which has much more up to date information than their website about eg term dates. Antenatal group reunions have all been organised via Facebook so I would have missed out if I hadn't been on it. So it's pretty much expected that I am on there.

Although I believe increasingly school parents' groups etc are moving to Whatsapp rather than Facebook - I don't use this myself at the moment so I don't know how this compares in terms of collecting information about me.

I do see a lot of nonsense on it too but block the most irritating people. It is a good point about subtle influences from 'news' items etc, and the effects on prices, but for me the benefits of it mean I wouldn't want to be without it. And maybe the same could be argued about giving away free copies of the Metro on public transport so everyone is reading the same paper - I suppose this lacks the interactive 'spying' element though. A minor nuisance is that if I search for something or buy something on Amazon it somehow links to my husband's facebook/amazon so it's difficult to buy him surprise presents!

I guess it's key to teach youngsters (and not so youngsters) critical thinking skills to interpret what they're reading/resist some of the disturbing stuff on there (which is surely available elsewhere on the net anyway).

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 14:19:52 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Edward Jones"]If you're not paying for a service you're not the customer, you're the product being sold.[/quote]

Does this make us all simply Arlo's stock....?[/quote]

That thought did occur to me too. I guess the huge difference is that FB is harvesting individuals’ data and browsing habits and using that to profile them, their interests, buying habits and spending power. So each individuals dataset becomes a very valuable asset. We’re not doing that, and never will. In fact, the degree to which vetsurgeon targets you is no more than: a vet. So you’re not really any more my ‘stock’ than you are the ‘stock’ of any print magazine you read.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 09:18:59 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Does this make us all simply Arlo's stock....?[/quote]

Yes but I don't see a problem with it. Just like Facebook adds don't bother me either, there is no free lunch :(

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Rob Davis — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 09:14:18 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]If you're not paying for a service you're not the customer, you're the product being sold.[/quote]

Does this make us all simply Arlo's stock....?

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Edward Jones — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 10:07:14 GMT

I was mucking about with the PCP finance calculator on the website for a certain make of car, now my facebook feed is full of adverts for that particular car.

I'm not sure how much I should care about the tracking/privacy intrusion.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

George Cooper — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:40:44 GMT

Not yet read the apparently divisive and offending Sunday Times article, but will.

Personal experience of Facebook has been superficially beneficial since I first logged in about 8 years ago. And yes, I do get a chain of adverts following everything i do exhorting me to buy a saxophone or another guitar despite having just done so! I joined primarily to spread the word about a series of concerts that my old, but freshly re-convened Comedy Band mounted after my wife had died in the local Hospice, with the express intention of raising whatever funds we could to donate to the Hospice where, incidentally, the wife of our fiddle player had died 20 years previously. By utilising the "Like" and "share" clicks, at zero cost (outwardly) to me I was able to link with many of our fans from when we had last played 20 years before, and astonishingly we sold out two nights in the theatre in Hereford and one in Builth Wells, where what had been young fans then brought their own children along on the basis of "you must hear this great band that your mother and i enjoyed!!" One die-hard fan even returned from New Zealand especially to attend. And no, he is still sane!! In the end we made a DVD which also sold out its exclusive run of 300 double DVDs (though I think I do have 2 left in a drawer, somewhere). As a result of this "viral" marketing about 1500 people enjoyed what we offered, as well as the DVD watchers, and we raised a smidgin over £25000 for the Hospice. In the process of creating the excitement we created a special page for our efforts, though in so doing it attracted pressure from FB to spend on "improving the reach". It did get a fair number of followers and has since lapsed into hibernation.

On an altogether more expansive and successful initiative my son has recently developed a business called The Children's Bookshelf - the £2 BookShop whereby he goes into schools to do "Pop-Up Shops", donating a free book to the school for every ten books purchased. Part of the model is to get every child in the school to come armed with £2 to choose THEIR book, thus empowering the kids who come in class by class to do their buying, with parents allowed to come in after the bell goes. ALL his marketing has been "viral" through a hyperactive Facebook presence, and although word of mouth has gleaned him 100+ schools in the region (starting with 2 12 months ago) the power of the FB reach is undoubted. I stood in for him last weekend at the shop they have opened and every customer was new to the Bookshelf and had learned about it through FaceBook. He did spend about £35 on improving the reach of one post, but nowadays, without that he is regularly "reaching" over 40,000 people.

Not only has he developed a sustainable business, but he is helping the schools and their repressed budgets AND, more importantly, facilitating the joy of reading in the children. I can't help but think that things would have been so much more difficult without the use of FB. Whilst the way he does it isn't really applicable to vet practice, there are certainly parallels and inferences that we could take from it. If you are interested - either personally or for your child's school - or simply to see the sort of stuff that has worked, simply search for The Children's Bookshelf and it'll be there in all its technicolour glory.

https://www.facebook.com/The2PoundBookShop/

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=the%20children%27s%20bookshelf

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

David Mills — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 22:37:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

God I wish you wouldn't beat around the bush so much, all the time.

The Times isn't generally regarded as lefty: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/how-left-or-right-wing-are-uks-newspapers/

Conspiracy theory claptrap?

Well, it is a fact that facebook gathers more intelligence about more people than any other organisation on earth. And it is a fact that it uses this data to shape what it displays in front of you. And it is a fact that this is driven with one purpose in mind, which is to drive more engagement / clicks for the advertiser.

[/quote]

The original article is in the London Review of Books. About as right wing as the Socialist Worker.

There are so many logical fallacies in the argument it's almost embarrassing. Yes they collect data. The vast majority of this is used for marketing/ads where they make their billions.

The Russian bs is simply the leftist response to Trump. File under Remain. It's depressing that this sort of "journalism" littered with "anonymous sources" could even makes it into print in a church magazine never mind a once respected Sunday paper.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Edward Jones — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:33:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The main thrust of the article is about how facebook's customers are its advertisers, not its users[/quote]

If you're not paying for a service you're not the customer, you're the product being sold.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:59:07 GMT

Facebook is as good as the people using it.

As a means to contact friends and family it is great but when it becomes a way of life it becomes a bit more sinister.

My wife puts almost every meal on her page so the excitement of her FB page is more than a simple individual can take! Selfies in the car make the excitement overwhelming.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:47:07 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Arlo, why do you think it is just the "developed world"?[/quote]

I was talking about the 2.1bn user figure i think I'd seen for the developed world, not that there aren't more users elsewhere!

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:07:59 GMT

Arlo, why do you think it is just the "developed world"?

For me the nicest thing about facebook is that I can easily stay in touch with my Mozambican friends, wherever they are in Mozambique.

Mariette

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

grumpyoldman — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:35:40 GMT

Can only comment on FB from personal experience. Recently one of our nurse trainees put a post on about the legality of dogs wearing restraints in cars. Yawn I thought. It had 6.5 million hits several thousand shares and generated 2600 likes on the page. Net positive effect on the business nil. It did drive the practice manager mad with emails from loonies all over the country.

I abandoned this to the nurses years ago because they seem to be more in touch with the publics feelings and needs.I have no idea what "floats their boats" but its nothing I am interested in.

Lots of people tend to sit with lap tops reading posts about obesity when they probably ought to be taking the dog for a walk.

I do know that the local broadband gets a bit overloaded and slows down at about 4pm in term time, and plays havoc with the practice software networking. Whatever happened to after school sports ?.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:36:38 GMT

Not read the article (yet) but the influence of Facebook on teenagers is anything but benign. There are groups providing the very worst of guidance for vulnerable teenagers.

Our daughter was heavily influenced by individuals on Facebook but as soon as she realised we were monitoring the activity she opened new and 'secret' accounts before moving to Instagram and more hidden ways of communicating.

She is just starting to dig herself out of the mess by returning to college but still doing it with a baby (actually a very nice one!!) and oxygen thief in tow.

The whole idea that a US election might be influenced by individuals or countries manipulating social media is a very unsettling one!

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:15:59 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The article is a typically lazily researched, heavily biased lefty conspiracy theory claptrap.[/quote]

God I wish you wouldn't beat around the bush so much, all the time.

The Times isn't generally regarded as lefty: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/how-left-or-right-wing-are-uks-newspapers/

Conspiracy theory claptrap?

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]I think Fb can be a source of good[/quote]

Yes, I agree. In my case, I've been contacted via fb by two or three people over the years who were great friends many years ago, who I'd lost touch with. Mind you, our lives had moved so far apart geographically that it didn't rekindle the friendship, so it was not much more than 'fleetingly nice'.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The non benign thing is that it brings people together with similar views and re-enforces it, as you will only send and receive points of view that you agree on. I followed 'we are the 48%' for a bit, but it was hideous, the bile exuded by remainers against everything was awful. I'd far rather read David Mills opposite views on this forum.[/quote]

Exactly.

One of the reasons why I think the future probably lies in the fragmentation of social media. I mean, any social media website needs to have enough members that they are likely to find their peers/colleagues/friends, but beyond a certain (low) number that becomes irrelevant.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Julie Innes — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:04:41 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]As an aside Julie you can set your page messages to issue an automatic reply. Ours says thanks for messaging, we will get back to you as soon as possible, please don't use this service for emergencies (or words to that effect). [/quote]

Thanks so much for that, Joyce, I didn't realise we could do this (Old fogey that I am!) Will get onto it pronto!

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:54:12 GMT

I think Fb can be a source of good, it's great for spreading information as a practice, but I feel very sorry for the kids these days growing up with the pressure of seeing everyone else out having fun at something they are not invited to for instance.

As an aside Julie you can set your page messages to issue an automatic reply. Ours says thanks for messaging, we will get back to you as soon as possible, please don't use this service for emergencies (or words to that effect).

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Julie Innes — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:02:07 GMT

It's certainly thought provoking!

I use Facebook very little, but we do have a practice page, which has surprised me with its popularity. In some ways it's great (our fireworks advice was shared by several so that thousands of people ended up seeing it, so hopefully that a thousand fewer on the phone, insisting that their dog is going to die of a heart attack if they don't drug it every single night, and saves the nurses and receptionists having the same conversation quite so many times) In other ways not so great (people messaging me at 3am to ask the price of something or, worse, messaging the page in an emergency - I have actually had " Ma dog is really struggling to breathe tonight, what cld it b? ") We make it clear that the page is not continually manned, and that we can't make appointments on there, but it does seem as though there is a huge sector of society that wants to conclude all their dealings through the crazy world of facebook! Worrying!

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:08:23 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

That said, social media is an arena for imbeciles whose opinions matter far less than they think they do.

[/quote]

What part of this forum you do not identify with 'social media'? Or did you purposely include yourself in the 'imbecile' group?

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

David Mills — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:50:43 GMT

The article is a typically lazily researched, heavily biased lefty conspiracy theory claptrap. File under Hacked Off nonsense. It's written by an author, hardly an experienced investigative journo, and first appeared in the London Review of Books.

That said, social media is an arena for imbeciles whose opinions matter far less than they think they do.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:17:21 GMT

[quote user="MartinH1"]

I'd like to think my use is benign - there's only one "friend" who seems to post and comment about politics whose posts I blocked, even though they were the same as my own. I use Facebook for sharing life events, not blabbering about my views on various things - nobody really gives a toss.

[/quote]

But you scroll and see things, don't you? So your opinion gets influenced. Just like watching TV adverts. None of us is immune.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Martin Hamilton — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:16:01 GMT

Interesting read Arlo! Thanks for sharing.

I feel that many of my generation (or again, maybe it's due to the "echo-chamber" effect) only seem to use Facebook for sharing photos and for using the messaging service. It was only when I entered the work place and when I added older staff members that I started seeing "click-bait" news articles and links. (as well as heated comments below political news articles)

Most of my friends use news aggregation apps such as Google News which aggregate news from legitimate news sites and give quite an array of political bias and views. Though I can easily see why Facebook and it's advertisers may be influencing journalism with the little "trending" section these days.

I'd like to think my use is benign - there's only one "friend" who seems to post and comment about politics whose posts I blocked, even though they were the same as my own. I use Facebook for sharing life events, not blabbering about my views on various things - nobody really gives a toss.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:04:40 GMT

Wow!, you're not telling me that Cambridge Analytica and AggregateIQ have anything to do with each other? Surely you speak of a hoax!

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:53:38 GMT

It's useful if used in a 'benign way' but can it ever be that?

I've started setting up a private group for each cycle tour where folks can share photos and ask questions which is fabulous.

The non benign thing is that it brings people together with similar views and re-enforces it, as you will only send and receive points of view that you agree on. I followed 'we are the 48%' for a bit, but it was hideous, the bile exuded by remainers against everything was awful. I'd far rather read David Mills opposite views on this forum.

Neil

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Sarah McGurk — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:30:54 GMT

Sobering read. I use it to keep up with old school friends and other people I would otherwise lose contact with. It’s easy to think of it as benign, though I was already aware some people take it very seriously and use it far more than I do. Life is so much more complicated now than it was in my youth. Thanks for the link Arlo.

RE: Sobering article about facebook ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 20:02:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Thought you might say something like that.

It's a website used by the other 2.1 billion inhabitants of the developed world.

[/quote]

Oh.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea.