Personality profiling

RE: Personality profiling

Anthony Todd — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 15:10:13 GMT

I wonder where people who kill animals for a living, all day every day, are in the spectrum.

Don't think I could do it.

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 14:10:26 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

Is it still arrogance if you really are that good?

[/quote]There are very few world class sportsmen who are so good that they don't need a degree of arrogance/absolute self belief coupled with going harder in training and being able to suffer more than their peers.

Anyone who watched the documentary on Jim Clark last night would realise that he was one of those few. He was so gifted it was effortless and he genuinely couldn't understand why everyone else couldn't go as fast as him. Without any trace of arrogance he famously once asked why everyone else was driving so slowly. Tragically he died young but in that short time he was the best there has ever been and IMO still is. Had he lived he would have undoubtedly be the record breaker that Lewis Hamilton is trying to emulate. I don't have many heroes I look up to but he was my greatest one and I still find it very difficult to watch a documentary about his death without wanting to hide behind the settee.

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Problems arise when you take that absolute belief beyond the sporting (or operating) environment, into the real world.[/quote]The problem is that that absolute self-belief is the reason is why top people are as good as they are it didn't develop as a means of fulfilling a single purpose. There are very few who genuinely don't carry this into the real world, Chris Froome is another, most others are able to suppress it even though they may still feel it, but those who are not intelligent/diplomatic enough to do so may come across as arrogant.

RE: Personality profiling

Iain Richards — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 13:43:42 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Ideally they need to be arrogant on the pitch/piste/course and humble in their practice.[/quote]

Is it still arrogance if you really are that good?

[/quote]For arrogance, substitute absolute self belief. Golf is a good one for this, or batting. You need total belief that you are going to stike the ball perfectly every time. As you are static, it's not reactive, so you need that level of trust in your ability. Problems arise when you take that absolute belief beyond the sporting (or operating) environment, into the real world.

RE: Personality profiling

David Mills — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 10:58:02 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Iain Richards"]There was an excellent piece in The Times from Matthew Syed on the arrogance of sports players.[/quote]

There's been quite a backlash on Twitter from the rugby world about his comments on Gavin Henson, saying that he's got completely the wrong end of the stick

[/quote]

I love Syed. He's a great example of self importance overshadowing any self awareness. He seems to think playing table tennis for a few years makes him an elite sportsman, and able to philosophise on elite sportspeople. I have no idea why people even read his polytechnic level trash.

RE: Personality profiling

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 10:30:31 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Ideally they need to be arrogant on the pitch/piste/course and humble in their practice.[/quote]

Is it still arrogance if you really are that good?

RE: Personality profiling

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 10:08:16 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]There was an excellent piece in The Times from Matthew Syed on the arrogance of sports players.[/quote]

There's been quite a backlash on Twitter from the rugby world about his comments on Gavin Henson, saying that he's got completely the wrong end of the stick

RE: Personality profiling

Bibs — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 16:49:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I know I would not feel guilty if I made the decision not to on that reasoning which probably puts me in the psychopathic spectrum.

[/quote]

I think for me it would depending on if I could see something that I could actually do to rescue them. If there was, then like you, I'd like to think I'd do it. I'm not too shy of physical risk. I don't think I'd run in the building aimlessly if it was about to collapse, that'd be stupid. If I didn't manage to help them I'd probably think about it a lot and feel bad about the whole thing.....this probably makes you more resilient!

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 16:42:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I think the behaviour of a psychopath is even more extreme than that,[/quote]Are we now talking about pathological psychopaths or those of us who have already identified that we have certain psychopathic traits? A clinically insane psychopath would probably have started the fire in the first place.

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]This is apposed to not attempt a dangerous rescue on their own (which seems OK to me). [/quote]The point then is: would you feel remorse and guilt for not attempting? I think I'm brave enough to attempt if I thought it would be successful without an unacceptably high risk to myself or others but equally I know I would not feel guilty if I made the decision not to on that reasoning which probably puts me in the psychopathic spectrum.

RE: Personality profiling

Bibs — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 16:21:40 GMT

I assume we mean the psychopath might do nothing, not call the fire brigade or anything?

There is probably a law against just watching people die and doing absolutely nothing. You can reason that you should do something even if it's to save yourself from jail.

This is apposed to not attempt a dangerous rescue on their own (which seems OK to me).

RE: Personality profiling

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 16:20:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

If a deaf man were standing in front of a burning building and could not hear the shouts of those trapped inside, who would blame them for not responding?

If someone is emotionally deaf and can't recognise or respond to emotion in a way society sees as normal and desirable, can they be blamed for some of their behaviours?

[/quote]The point is that a psychopath would hear the shouts but make a decision that he/she could not justify the risk attempting the rescue. But more particularly not feel remorse or have a conscience for not doing so.

[/quote]

I think the behaviour of a psychopath is even more extreme than that, they would choose to rescue someone if the personal gain for them outweighed the risks. They wouldn't care whether the person in danger lived or died, what they might care about would be how their actions made other people think about them, so they might put themselves in danger to rescue someone because of the publicity that would come with it and how that would improve their status.

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 16:08:50 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

If a deaf man were standing in front of a burning building and could not hear the shouts of those trapped inside, who would blame them for not responding?

If someone is emotionally deaf and can't recognise or respond to emotion in a way society sees as normal and desirable, can they be blamed for some of their behaviours?

RE: Personality profiling

J G Wray — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 15:23:44 GMT

Here's a thought about psychopaths

" If a deaf man were standing in front of a burning building and could not hear the shouts of those trapped inside, who would blame them for not responding?

If someone is emotionally deaf and can't recognise or respond to emotion in a way society sees as normal and desirable, can they be blamed for some of their behaviours?"

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:04:27 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]There was an excellent piece in The Times from Matthew Syed on the arrogance of sports players. Ideally they need to be arrogant on the pitch/piste/course and humble in their practice. [/quote]In order to succeed in sport, self belief to the point of arrogance is as essential as lack of fear and the ability to suffer pain more than other sportsperson of equal ability, let average member of the public. I'm not sure this easily translates into humility in normal life.

RE: Personality profiling

Iain Richards — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 13:52:29 GMT

A friend is a consultant gynae oncology surgeon. He gives letures to would be surgeons with the opening that, "If you are a surgeon the first thing you have to do is to realise that you have a form of OCD. The second thing to do something about it in a outlet that isn't work." He makes guitars, from scratch, selecting just the right bit of wood. He's quite a contrast to most surgeons. There was an excellent piece in The Times from Matthew Syed on the arrogance of sports players. Ideally they need to be arrogant on the pitch/piste/course and humble in their practice. We can learn something from this as a profession.

RE: Personality profiling

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 10:02:21 GMT

It was an excellent documentary of Chris Packham and great to see someone achieve so much. All credit to him and the BBC for their support for his different needs over the years, well before there was much awareness of autism. There must have been some enlightened producers and directors involved , well worth a watch on iPlayer if you missed it.

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 09:28:08 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

There is also the interesting thought that many many vets are somewhere on the autisic spectrum, and usually well in on it!

[/quote]After watching the excellent programme recently with Chris Packham on his autism I have also recognised some traits in myself. So I'm an autistic, psychopath!

The fact probably is that there is no such thing as normal, every single one of us has some element of every psychological trait, after all we have only given names to certain conditions to define and pigeon hole them. It is only when several traits occur together, reinforced by social and nurturing factors that they express themselves and a diagnosable condition emerges.

Another interesting programme last night on 'Trust me I'm a Doctor' about depression: the genetics, predisposing factors and treatment options. I'm sure every one of us suffers from depression and anxiety at some times in our lives but the other psychological and environmental factors around all determine how much of a problem this is for any given individual, plus some of us have bigger hurt lockers than others.

In the end we're all nuts!

RE: Personality profiling

George Cooper — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 18:23:36 GMT

There is also the interesting thought that many many vets are somewhere on the autisic spectrum, and usually well in on it!

RE: Personality profiling

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 18:14:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Those of us who have identified psychopathic traits you list in ourselves realise that we are not outright loonies/serial killers albeit I'm often accused of lacking empathy and conscience, however then it is a question of degree. I don't totally lack these qualities I just am not over-indulgent and can't be sympathetic to someone who is over-reacting/attention seeking and basically needs to pull themselves together. I do have a conscience about some things I've done which in hindsight may be wrong but realise that the decision had to be made, I can justify it and I have to move on.[/quote]

As Dr Wray has pointed out psychopaths share a distinct set of personality traits. There are probably far more people who show a subset of these traits than there are psychopaths so I'm not sure it's helpful to diagnose yourself (or others) with psychopathic traits.

RE: Personality profiling

Bibs — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 17:43:10 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I think people who rate high on the psychopath scale are probably more resilient. [/quote]

Ah now that's an interesting thing to say, and I will have to disagree.

Psychopaths have a distinct set of personality characteristics including ruthlessness, fearlessness, mental toughness, a charismatic personality and lack of conscience and empathy. I don't know many veterinary surgeons who lack conscience or empathy. In truth you can have traits seen in psychopaths, mental toughness for instance without having all the traits. So, I would say that those who rate highly in terms of mental toughness, might include some psychopaths.

NOTE: not all psychopaths are Shipmans or Wests,

[/quote]

Why do you disagree that psychopaths are more resilient?

As you point out I'm not saying all mentally tough vets are psychopaths. But psychopaths, or people who rate high on that scale, are likely to be resilient and thick skinned, I think.

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 17:04:32 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]In truth you can have traits seen in psychopaths, mental toughness for instance without having all the traits....not all psychopaths are Shipmans or Wests,[/quote]You've basically agreed not to disagree Jon. Those of us who have identified psychopathic traits you list in ourselves realise that we are not outright loonies/serial killers albeit I'm often accused of lacking empathy and conscience, however then it is a question of degree. I don't totally lack these qualities I just am not over-indulgent and can't be sympathetic to someone who is over-reacting/attention seeking and basically needs to pull themselves together. I do have a conscience about some things I've done which in hindsight may be wrong but realise that the decision had to be made, I can justify it and I have to move on.

RE: Personality profiling

J G Wray — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 16:34:58 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I think people who rate high on the psychopath scale are probably more resilient. [/quote]

Ah now that's an interesting thing to say, and I will have to disagree.

NOTE: not all psychopaths are Shipmans or Wests,

RE: Personality profiling

Niall Taylor — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 16:14:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I had met this specialist before during my training and he had actually told me that he thought people who don't love animals make better vets.[/quote]Surely this comes down to your definition of love. [/quote]

Absolutelty - too many people these days think 'love' equates to a heart-on-sleeve type sentimentality, something that would be completely counterproductive in a veterinary surgeon, being more self-indulgent than productive. Proper 'love' for animals starts with seeing them for what they are and extends to empathy and wanting to do the absolute best by them, even occasionally at some personal cost.

I blame x-factor

Niall

RE: Personality profiling

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 11:19:08 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I had met this specialist before during my training and he had actually told me that he thought people who don't love animals make better vets.[/quote]Surely this comes down to your definition of love. I would categorise myself as an animal lover and a human hater but that doesn't stop me having a loving relationship with my family and I would die for them but equally it doesn't stop me from realising that 'love' for animals is more care and compassion not an emotional attachment. Once animals take the place of humans in people's emotional relationships then there is a form of mental illness/insecurity going on and someone who cannot realise that is not only going to not make a good vet but is going to have serious personal emotional issues.

I had the greatest respect for her but sadly our much missed departed colleague Wynn seemed to fit into the latter category.

RE: Personality profiling

Bibs — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 11:02:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Slightly more seriously: the Peter Capaldi incarnation of The Doctor famously said in one episode: 'Sometimes we only have bad decisions we can make but we still have to make a decision'. This applies often to us in our work and a psychopath may find it easier to make those decisions without an emotional blockade.

[/quote]

I agree with this. I often think we have to deal with impossible situations that there isn't a good answer for. I sometimes wish I had a bit more psychopath in my personality

A long time ago when I was still at university I had to take my family dog to see a specialist. I had met this specialist before during my training and he had actually told me that he thought people who don't love animals make better vets. This was because of the whole emotional side of things and stress. Knowing he felt like this did upset me though, especially when he had to see my family dog.I wanted him to be kind to her as well as do what was right. Caring and doing this sort of job does mean that you suffer though.

RE: Personality profiling

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 09:14:51 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The area with the highest numbers of psychopaths? Paediatrics. [/quote]

Interesting observation, however any study will always identify one group as coming out on top, so probably better it wasn't geriatrics.

On a more serious note, is one of the traits of psychopaths that they have a detachment to human suffering? When having to deal with children with all the emotional factors at play, is this a good trait? If you were super caring would paediatrics ultimately break you?

Neil