Undercharging

RE: Undercharging

Iain Richards — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 21:32:59 GMT

I wonder if any other service industry ties itself into such knots when it comes to charging?

RE: Undercharging

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:59:58 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

When it comes to estimates, have you ever thought of putting things in a context for the owner? Thus when asked recently for an estimate for an orthopaedic procedure I was able to use the charges made for a recent and similar case - estimate came from the similar case's invoiced amounts.

This conveys two pieces of information, one, the estimated cost and two, that another owner in a similar position made the choice to go ahead and paid the "going rate".

[/quote] what a great idea . It would address that client concern that vets just “think of a figure they can get away with “ without appreciating all the factors concerned in accurate pricing for a procedure.

RE: Undercharging

J G Wray — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:52:10 GMT

This conveys two pieces of information, one, the estimated cost and two, that another owner in a similar position made the choice to go ahead and paid the "going rate".

RE: Undercharging

vs0u — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:50:36 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]

[quote user="vs0u "]Perhaps one strategy might be to tell vets they have an allowance they can knock off eg. no more than 1 free consult per week. [/quote]

We have 6 vets so that's a loss of $22,464 a year.

[/quote]

True but if all your vets charge properly all the time you wouldn't need to do this. It could be useful for practices where there is an undercharging culture (probably because the boss does it and others therefore feel it's ok). In many practices there's probably hundreds of pounds per week being lost this way so if vets had a limited amount of freebies they could give, it might reduce this. Maybe it wouldn't work though - who knows!

RE: Undercharging

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:31:55 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]That discussion was had only very, very rarely and usually involved the boss saying, "So, you don't think the client should be paying and while you don't want to do the paying yourself you want me to pay"[/quote]

Geoff Parkin had a neater way of putting it: "If you want to be charitable that's very commendable, but do it with your own money".

RE: Undercharging

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:13:44 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]We have 6 vets so that's a loss of $22,464 a year.[/quote]

Good point. Puts me in mind of a locum job I did many years ago - the boss overheard an assistant explaining to me that everything had to be charged - the practice policy was definitely NO freebies. The boss corrected him, pointing out that everything costs, nothing is ever really free so if you, the assistant, want to pay for the work that the client has had done then that is fine by him. But if you wanted him (the boss) to pay for it then he expected to be consulted first. That discussion was had only very, very rarely and usually involved the boss saying, "So, you don't think the client should be paying and while you don't want to do the paying yourself you want me to pay"

RE: Undercharging

Will McMullan — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:05:51 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]

[quote user="vs0u "]Perhaps one strategy might be to tell vets they have an allowance they can knock off eg. no more than 1 free consult per week. [/quote]

We have 6 vets so that's a loss of $22,464 a year.

[/quote]

It would never only be one consult either, that policy would just encourage the practice.

RE: Undercharging

Alistair Graham-Evans — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:47:39 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]Perhaps one strategy might be to tell vets they have an allowance they can knock off eg. no more than 1 free consult per week. [/quote]

We have 6 vets so that's a loss of $22,464 a year.

RE: Undercharging

Wren — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 08:50:43 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I am trying to be firmer. I know its rubbish if the other vets charge properly and I don't (and then wonder why all the clients want to see me...) But there's no one to tell me off ...[/quote]

I had a boss who was a nightmare for doing this - was especially fond of charging our 'passing visit' fee (which was about 25% of the normal charge and to be used only in exceptional circumstances) when he had driven 25 miles for the sole reason of visiting that one client. He often did the exams for free too, and just charged for the drugs. Unsurprisingly everyone wanted to see him. One client actually told me that they preferred me as a vet, but couldn't afford to have me out!! I had to charge everything out correctly every single time or I got a bollocking from the other boss who admitted the problem, but never tackled his partner about it. It made life very awkward with clients when my bills for the same thing were routinely twice as much as his - they only ever saw it as me overcharging, not him undercharging.

RE: Undercharging

Beats — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:28:52 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Beats"]The thing I have always mused about is the irony that often it is assumed that the vet's time spent producing and discussing endless estimates for diagnostic/treatment options[/quote]

Most of what we do is surely frequent enough to have set estimates instantly generated by a well set-up PMS? Likewise stock information sheets to cover such client information required

[/quote]

90% maybe?

RE: Undercharging

Rob Loxley — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 23:48:10 GMT

Most of what we do is surely frequent enough to have set estimates instantly generated by a well set-up PMS? Likewise stock information sheets to cover such client information required

RE: Undercharging

vs0u — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 23:11:14 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]As the practice owner, I am the absolute worst for undercharging [/quote]

Hehe my boss used to be like that. One of my colleagues discovered he could charge for 0.5 consults on the PMS, my boss found out and told him off and then we found he started doing it himself. Of course it was his right to do so but just goes to show how hard it can be to resist knocking a bit off for deserving cases.

Perhaps one strategy might be to tell vets they have an allowance they can knock off eg. no more than 1 free consult per week.

RE: Undercharging

Chris Milligan — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:36:47 GMT

Yes and no - at the outset it looks like a bad example, but it's your money and your clinic at the end of the day - and, probably unlike your other vets, you probably do understand the value of things a little better.

RE: Undercharging

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:32:23 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]and this is the problem with being paid on commission[/quote]

Which is exactly why we didn't. We paid on work done via "good practice".

RE: Undercharging

Julie Innes — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:51:40 GMT

As the practice owner, I am the absolute worst for undercharging . I have no excuse (eg I didn't charge my neighbour anything tonight for bringing her dog for me to have a quick look at its leg and pronounce it fine, as she did actually bring it to the surgery instead of just "popping up" with it when I get home- reward the good behaviour and all that...)

I am trying to be firmer. I know its rubbish if the other vets charge properly and I don't (and then wonder why all the clients want to see me...) But there's no one to tell me off ...

RE: Undercharging

Chris Milligan — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:41:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]We reduced the influence of prescription drugs when one vet sent every dental out on a months Ceporex....[/quote]

and this is the problem with being paid on commission

RE: Undercharging

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:14:12 GMT

We found that there was a staggering difference in charges, by any parameter, between vets and, paradoxically, when this was pointed out, even every month, even with accurate data, it made no difference at all.

Their renumeration was related to their procedures performed and drugs prescribed, [but less so].

We reduced the influence of prescription drugs when one vet sent every dental out on a months Ceporex....

RE: Undercharging

J G Wray — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:50:48 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Have you a link to the training you speak of?[/quote]

https://www.vetdynamics.co.uk/services/toolbox/

under Team Performance and Consultation skills

RE: Undercharging

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:47:33 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

There is training available, in the UK, to help vets understand what they are doing why and how they should be charging.

As mentioned, ahem and deleted,

[/quote]

Sorry ... a little unintended collateral damage as I was bombing the duff posts earlier.

Have you a link to the training you speak of?

RE: Undercharging

J G Wray — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:30:22 GMT

There is training available, in the UK, to help vets understand what they are doing why and how they should be charging.

As mentioned, ahem and deleted, we will be doing this in December for the second time for most third time for some. The net effect lasts 18months-2years

The cost is daunting, but set against increase in turnover, a small price to pay.

RE: Undercharging

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:23:38 GMT

[quote user="Beats"]If I spend an hour discussing diagnostic/treatment options and costs and hypothetical outcomes of an exciting range of options, not to mention producing written estimates or checking if the service can be provided cheaper elsewhere, and then it is concluded that the cost is too great and the patient is euthanased.........[/quote]I have become pretty savvy at gauging which clients are just discharging their debt to their pet by exploring treatment options when they really just want it bumped off. I will then ask them at the outset what their expectation is and say 'if you really want it euthanased lets cut to the chase and not waste time discussing alternatives you don't want/cant afford', or words to that effect - even I can be diplomatic sometimes!

RE: Undercharging

Beats — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:56:41 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]

For our "oral surgery" cases, we have a value on extracting a particular tooth. This is charged regardless of how long is taken. It makes it much easier to estimate accurately, and makes it hard for the vets to undercharge.

Our vets will give an estimate at the time of the consultation (a very wide range) and inform the client they need to be available on the phone to receive an accurate estimate once the teeth have been fully assessed under anaesthetic. This way the clients can choose if they have the full procedure done, and there are no big shocks at reception. The nurses then check the dental chart against the invoice before discharge to ensure nothing is missed.

[/quote]

I advise that until assessed under anesthetic, it is not possible to give an accurate estimate and work is largely charged on time taken, but give a wide range of £**-£***, advising that the average cost is £*** [based on full procedures done over a 3 month period], and that if the owner wishes to place a cap on costs then that can be accommodated by starting with the most important stuff and terminating the procedure after a set amount of time. I personally don't like phoning and discussing costs in middle of anesthetic.

RE: Undercharging

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:55:14 GMT

I have been through this thread, deleted off-topic posts, and tweaked the remaining ones so they still make sense.

Alistair Graham-Evans, I will now go and delete your restart of the thread elsewhere. Hopefully we can now all pick up where we left off here, and everyone can keep it friendly!

RE: Undercharging

Beats — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:50:24 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Discussing cost is an important and essential part of the job.[/quote]

The thing I have always mused about is the irony that often it is assumed that the vet's time spent producing and discussing endless estimates for diagnostic/treatment options, and hypothetical outcomes of such, costs nothing.

If I spend an hour discussing diagnostic/treatment options and costs and hypothetical outcomes of an exciting range of options, not to mention producing written estimates or checking if the service can be provided cheaper elsewhere, and then it is concluded that the cost is too great and the patient is euthanased, time spent and profitability (or lack thereof) remains similar as if I had stuck the ultrasound scanner on to check what I thought might be a closed pyometra and then removed it and the owners had paid only the price of a euthanasia.

RE: Undercharging

Braden Collins — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:41:57 GMT

Our nurses are fully authorised to add any missed charges to any invoices, and we make it clear to all staff that the vets have no authority to overrule the nurses.

We find having pre-set templates for surgeries on our PMS also helps keep estimates accurate and bills completed properly. We populate these templates with everything that might be needed, and the vets then delete what is not used. This way, it needs to be a very deliberate act to delete something, rather than a case of "oops, I forgot to charge that". Makes everyone much more accountable.