So where are all the vets???

RE: So where are all the vets???

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 21:02:44 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]"But I've been ringing them our lovely excellent vet every ten minutes, [/quote]

"Oh, perhaps there's something wrong with your phone, let me phone them for you"

RE: So where are all the vets???

Anthony Todd — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:21:28 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]With what do you pay?[/quote]

Profit.... "life style/free time/time off" has to be paid for somehow by someone.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]"Oh, yes, you can you know, every veterinary practice makes provision for clients 24 hours. "[/quote]

"But I've been ringing them our lovely excellent vet every ten minutes, and our new 5 month old female cat is rolling on the floor screaming in agony"....

RE: So where are all the vets???

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:22:32 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Would I be correct in saying that, with OOH calls, 99 callers out of 98 are people you'd never seen before, and will never see again.....[/quote]

No, you would not.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Some IMHE actually used to say "I wouldn't want to disturb Mr X, my usual vet".[/quote]

Ah, in such a case (very rare) I will reply "Oh, yes, you can you know, every veterinary practice makes provision for clients 24 hours. "

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] pay over the odds[/quote]

With what do you pay?

RE: So where are all the vets???

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:18:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Vets' clients are usually polite, well organised and wouldn't dream of spoiling your leisure time or am I old fashioned??[/quote]

Bless!

RE: So where are all the vets???

Anthony Todd — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:12:19 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]my feeling has always been that if you as a client support me in the day, I will be there for you at night.[/quote]

Would I be correct in saying that, with OOH calls, 99 callers out of 98 are people you'd never seen before, and will never see again.....

Do vets have a legal or moral responsibility to deal with people who they've never seen before and/or are a long way away??

Some IMHE actually used to say "I wouldn't want to disturb Mr X, my usual vet".

And then even add he's so good, and so nice!!

Vets' clients are usually polite, well organised and wouldn't dream of spoiling your leisure time or am I old fashioned??

The other thing in this thread about lack of vets................... pay over the odds, it is, after all tax-deductible!

RE: So where are all the vets???

Chris Milligan — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:57:45 GMT

[quote user="Sam"]We were offering no OOH, no weekends, no Saturday mornings and a four day week for an extremely generous salary. Small animal practice in a rural location.... a wonderful place to settle. No candidates at all and I have now given up.... will continue to run with locums or single handed as necessary.[/quote]

It's interesting the issues recruiters face - though you have to look at it from the opposite side of the table; what you think might be a great opportunity may not look so for someone else.

Purely if I was reading an ad to the effect of what you wrote there I'd have some reservations. Please don't take this personally but as a "millenial" (whatever that means) with some experience here's what I'd take from it:

1. Rural location - not everyone's cup of tea by a long stretch despite what you might think

2. Single-handed means you're on your own presumably? Who do I learn from and how do I progress my skills besides going to the London vet show once every couple of years?

3. I'm not sure many people my age are looking to settle permanently these days?

4. What's your idea of a generous salary? Can it match the upwards-of-250 a day I can make locuming on my own terms?

These features sound appealing to the kind of vet who is already settled, and probably already looking at or owning their own clinic - might be why you've had little interest, even though your practice may be brilliant. One way you could get interest might be to offer a new development option for the lucky vet - partial buy-in or development of a branch practice, or opportunity to establish a new service. People want responsibility - and they want to be rewarded for it. Good luck with your search though - we have the same troubles truth be told :D

RE: So where are all the vets???

Clive Ansell — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:14:19 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]5. Downsize and try run as solo vet again[/quote]

Seriously; do all of your own OOH 24/7/52/365?

[/quote]

It's a serious option.

[/quote]

Might be for some, but wouldn't suit me or be conducive with my lifestyle. Cannot imagine it being an altogether easy option either.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:58:42 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]5. Downsize and try run as solo vet again[/quote]

Seriously; do all of your own OOH 24/7/52/365?

[/quote]

It's a serious option.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Clive Ansell — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:06:23 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]gets worse - so after not being able to replace the third vet within a couple of months, the second vet has now opted for another practice with no OOH so have gone from 3 vet practice back to sole charge in the space of a few months.[/quote]

Therein lies the clue, maybe OOH needs to go so that you can recruit?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]3. Drop OOH and have the 'don't care if you have to travel out of town for your emergency - not my problem' attitude which I have tried so desperately to avoid - my feeling has always been that if you as a client support me in the day, I will be there for you at night.[/quote]

It is not a case of not caring, more a case of having to adapt to a more modern world in which staff are less willing to work OOH in addition to working long hard hours all day.

[quote user="Richard Carter"]5. Downsize and try run as solo vet again[/quote]

Seriously; do all of your own OOH 24/7/52/365?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]So what are the options?[/quote]

Maybe 7) how far away are the nearest OOH clinics? if they are more than, lets say 30 minutes, would it be possible to have a system where the OOH clinic takes the phones and sees most cases, but you are on call still for genuine emergencies only (Status epilepticus, GDV etc), that cannot travel that far for a which a premium is charged, and you would be contacted by the OOH clinic and not the client.

I used to work in one OOH clinic where one of the user practices did this because they were a 40 minute motorway drive away. It was not perfect but it was a good compromise, and although it did not remove OOH commitments they were significantly reduced.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:24:15 GMT

I am a sole charge vet but could not work 24/7 long term. I dipped my toe into the corporate world by contacting IVC. A single vet practice was not on their wish list so it went no further. A bit strange as they own pretty much every practice around here and it would put them into a near monopoly position. This would work well as a near standalone branch.

A so called budget practice opened a couple of years ago and that did dent the profit and turnover more than I expected but this has reversed over the last 12 months with quite a number of people returning especially with sick pets.

There is nothing wrong with sub-contracting the out of hours as long as you have processes in place to deal with it.

There are some procedures I try not to do because it would mean compromising welfare with constant transfers. I refer a bit more than I would otherwise.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:06:19 GMT

Richard Carter Oh my god, what a bloody nightmare for you. I have an email going out to everyone shortly about new aspect of the job section, if you'd like, I'll reactivate your advert FOC, review it with you and feature it in my email. Given current supply and demand, no guarantee even that will work, but will do my very best. Email me: support@vetsurgeon.org.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Richard Carter — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:14:35 GMT

gets worse - so after not being able to replace the third vet within a couple of months, the second vet has now opted for another practice with no OOH so have gone from 3 vet practice back to sole charge in the space of a few months.

So what are the options?

1. Best option - there are a couple of vets out there that want their own show, buy in and the practice continues

2. Continue to try run the place with assistants/ locums if I can get them

3. Drop OOH and have the 'don't care if you have to travel out of town for your emergency - not my problem' attitude which I have tried so desperately to avoid - my feeling has always been that if you as a client support me in the day, I will be there for you at night.

4. Become a branch clinic of one of the bigger practices (which are corporate owned)

5. Downsize and try run as solo vet again

6. Close up shop

Spoken to a few vets in the last few days who have sold out to the corporates and they state this is exactly why they got out.

Roll on the new order. Hope the current vets are going to like the fact their options are getting less and less all the time and the noose is tightening.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Liz w — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 15:12:21 GMT

The staff shortage was always going to be inevitable when the ratio of female to male students dramatically increased.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 19:45:25 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

Getting back to the OP, the topic of shortage of vets is on the front page of the VT this week.

SPVS survey shows half of UK veterinary practices are short staffed, with may practices struggling to find new vets. Problem likely to get worse after Brexit.

http://bit.ly/2y5HBvP

[/quote]

Interesting read, seems to echo a lot of what younger members have been saying on here. Interesting to see that of people leaving the profession, barring "undecided", "Work in the veterinary profession in another country" was the top choice. And more than 15% of surveyed vets either questioning or planning on leaving practice in the forseeable future - that's a scary thought

RE: So where are all the vets???

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 03 Nov 2017 15:13:12 GMT

Getting back to the OP, the topic of shortage of vets is on the front page of the VT this week.

SPVS survey shows half of UK veterinary practices are short staffed, with may practices struggling to find new vets. Problem likely to get worse after Brexit.

http://bit.ly/2y5HBvP

RE: So where are all the vets???

Richard Carter — Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:04:08 GMT

think you could be limiting your horizons which is strange knowing you spent time in Africa following your dreams

RE: So where are all the vets???

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 22:09:45 GMT

"yes agree - however I have always loved the fact as vets we really can choose where we work" Richard Carter

Wow that sounds sooooo old fashioned. Or maybe you are a bachelor.

What about where the other half lives? What about schools/friends of the kids?

What about (later in life) having to live near the parents or in-laws because they are becoming frail.

Life is one big series of compromises unles the "Pater familias" decides and the rest has to follow....

Mariette

RE: So where are all the vets???

rhmrcvs — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 21:03:52 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

yes agree - however I have always loved the fact as vets we really can choose where we work - and my idea of a good spot is the market town, countryside, walking the dog, helping with the local dog club etc. Just so surprised the 'escape to the country' is not anyone else's idea apparently.

[/quote]

I would love to 'escape to the country' as I'm sure would many but for my friends and I it is limited to where our family is (future proofing for childcare emergencies mainly). if your support network is in one area, regardless of if you would love to live in the middle of nowhere - you will stay near that support network.

Just my opinion though

[/quote]

We worked it completely the opposite way. Picked an area we wanted to be , had one good friend locally. Eventually opened our own practice , had 2 kids, nearest family 2.5 hrs away . We managed by ourselves and with nurseries. Never crossed our minds to rely on family for childcare. The work we wanted to do didn't fit with where our family was so moved for work.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Clive Ansell — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 18:25:00 GMT

[quote user="Liz w"]

have they tried advertising it as two job shares? Although it sounds fine for a vet with no independents, working until 7pm 4 nights a week wouldn't be that desirable if you've got kids that you want to see.

Is it one of the Bromsgrove practices? I worked there 20 years ago and loved the area - convenient for city and countryside.

[/quote]

No, it's not in Bromsgrove, but not far away in a Worcestershire village.

I think they have looked at job share and part time options, but it seems most folk, particularly younger mothers, want 0930 -1500 work, and nobody wants to work until 1900, which isn't feasible as evenings are their busiest. They have looked at closing at 1800, but many of the clients work and the late appts are needed. Although open until 1900, vets often get away at 1830 as long as the work is done and can be contacted until 1900.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Harriet Nicholson — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 15:40:22 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[/quote]

Just my opinion though

RE: So where are all the vets???

Richard Carter — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 15:12:47 GMT

I am also aware of the negative as we are obliged to still do OOH due to distance etc to the nearest centre, even though we are not nearly as busy as some places you read about on this forum - we think busy is maybe 3-4 cases per week, perhaps the same on a weekend. I would have also thought there would be some who want the continuity in the development of the case, the familiarity of a stable same workplace, the being part of the local community either through work, sports or family in an unpolluted, uncrowded part of the country?

Problem with advertising is that as you say, our equipment is pretty much the same as the next practice, the salary is similar, the hours are similar. Trying to pretend any different is misleading. We have just taken a new grad who had never done an anaesthetic before through the skills development to now being a very able vet so we know we are ok with support, ongoing development, CPD etc.

The quality of the practice and where it is going in its development depends on the professional staff employed. Don't need Mother Theresa or Prof Fitzpatrick - just someone who finds getting a CHF in a cat under control is still good fun, who is thrilled with a caesarian that goes well even if it was at 1am, who wants to develop their skills, advance their knowledge, satisfy their curiosity and to try have some fun while working in a team, developing the practice.

RE: So where are all the vets???

George Cooper — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 01:38:16 GMT

Wow - this is a tortuous read, this thread, particularly, it happened, I started at the back and worked forward! Interesting stuff. Wish I hadn't missed it.

However - two points. Firstly when I was involved in consultancy work (=philosophical thoughts re the profession and how it was run and why etc) I had a young student actually seek to come and "see practice" with me. This was unusual, for a vet student to express an interest in the management of practice. The fact that her career has been completely atypical and that she has ended up as a President of a couple of veterinary associations came as no surprise to me. She made one really telling comment during one of the many deep and riveting conversations we had and that was to the effect that her generation was NOT afraid of hard, intense, involved work, but that they expected to be able to, for example, arrange to meet their friends at the gym at, say 7pm after work finished. The inference was that practices needed to become better organised in providing sufficient and appropriate staff to allow proper continuity of care. I think she's right, though I wonder if, 17 years on, she still adheres to that thought.

Secondly - and in response to the apparent lack of applicants for positions advertised. It is my belief that the advertising of vet positions has remained stuck in the bygone days of the half inch in the Record - the "lots of toys" type. I don't think that advertisers stop, and think of what, actually, a potential applicant wishes to read, what is important to them in deciding to go for a job, rather than what the practice boss thinks about it all.

In the "vacancy" situation there are TWO people with a problem, different problems entirely. The boss's problem is that he is a vet shy and needs to fill that hole asap. The applicants problem is that they need a position that fulfils all their myriad requirements. Then comes the interview!! The Boss, eager to "sell" the job will often promise the earth, then, when someone accepts ... ... his "problem" is solved and goes away, and with it ends the commitment to the support he promised, the CPD that was on offer, the nights on call etc etc etc - all leading to the disgruntlement of the applicant who STILL has a load of "problems" just getting to cope with being in a new practice.

Trouble is - this now moves the argument on from the vacancy into the running of the practice as an ongoing debacle.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Liz w — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 23:03:52 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]What is the pay package?[/quote]

I don't know the actual figure, it would be open to negotiation and would be along with SPVS guidelines and commensurate with relevant experience.

I have known the practice since 1991 and what I do know, and in light of discussions here regarding poor and (Allegedly) exploitative working practices, it would be an excellent place to work and I cannot understand why such a vacancy hasn't been filled much sooner.

[/quote]

Is it one of the Bromsgrove practices? I worked there 20 years ago and loved the area - convenient for city and countryside.

RE: So where are all the vets???

Sarah McGurk — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 15:02:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I think a lot of posters just don't read one star posts and my sensible [?] reply is therefore ignored which doesn't help the thread.

[/quote]

Can't speak for anyone else Anthony, but I read all posts regardless of the stars. But you can probably tell that!

Blessed be the (old) fruit!

RE: So where are all the vets???

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 13:31:59 GMT

As one of the worlds faffers, I should at this stage come to our defence!

I faff when I have time to faff and get on with things when I don't. Drives everyone mad here!