Is there a flea epidemic?

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:51:36 GMT

Another interesting pub fact - the lice that whales get are pretty large. You certainly don't have any problem in seeing or finding them. Mind you - whales don't have any hair for the lice to hide in! And for Anthony - the temp. this afternoon is a balmy 15C.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:51:51 GMT

* files the fact that penguins have fleas under interesting pub facts *

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:50:42 GMT

Now Anthony. We're only 52 degrees south compared with Shetland being 60 degrees N and even the southernmost part of NZ almost reaches 50 S. Our climate would be very similar to that of the UK if we had a gulf stream. As it is it is colder here than in the UK but considerably drier as well.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:46:03 GMT

The climate will have played a part. Historically houses down here were not very well heated with the only day round warm room being the kitchen (much as it would have been in the UK historically). That is not the case any more and now that Falkland Islanders have discovered heating fuel IMO they tend to overheat their houses - so if fleas were introduced they would survive very well. We make sure that all new entrants to the Islands are treated for fleas before they leave the UK and again on arrival here. Interestingly we do have fleas in some of the wildlife species down here including the various penguin species and most of the flea bites we see in humans are from penguin fleas. I'm amazed how they survive on their hosts during their frequent sea voyages but I suppose penguins must be watertight down at skin level

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:31:35 GMT

I fail to see the point of a product that has fleas dropping off within minutes but lasting only a few hours. Perhaps for admission patients but otherwise pointless. NB: Vet strength 4 fleas in the pet shop, owners fooled every time!

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 15:07:32 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]Not down here in the Falkland Islands.[/quote]

Does it ever get over zero degrees, ever??

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 14:57:44 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]Capstar is amazingly fast - I've seen them dropping off within 15minutes of administration[/quote]

But will it still kill them tomorrow?.....

another turbo coming up...

Key is owner compliance. "we spray him/her every week" [back in the days of Nuvan Top].

"Good", I said "and what day?" much "ering" and "uming", so we had labels printed and I wrote the day on the can..... others in the practice just wrote "WEEKLY" which destroyed the point!!

Key is to give them an actual day of the week or date!!

Some manufacturers used to provide little sticky labels to stick on client calendars ???

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 10:38:06 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]

Not down here in the Falkland Islands. We are cat and dog flea free I am very pleased to report and we intend to keep it that way.

[/quote]Interesting. Is that because of the climate? There was a time when my Scottish colleagues told me they sold a fraction of the volume of flea products we do (could be Scottish clients are just tight mind you!), which we put down to it being just a few degrees cooler on average than SE England but with global warming that may be changing. Or is it just because they've never been introduced? As regards the latter do you make sure every pet that comes with a new resident is de-flead on entry?

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

David Hopper — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 20:44:02 GMT

There appears to be a resistance to Fipronil so everyone is pouring this product, available in many shop & vet flea products, on their pets with little effect. We have noticed it gradually getting worse over the past 3 years. Great times for vets!

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Stephen Pointing — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 20:06:27 GMT

Not down here in the Falkland Islands. We are cat and dog flea free I am very pleased to report and we intend to keep it that way.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Bob Russell — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:43:10 GMT

Going to turbo post here!

These findings were a couple of decades ago and fleas have passed through many generations since. Why on earth would we not expect these survivors to have been selected for?

There is widespread use of the term resistance for varroa mites in bees, why not use the same terminology here?

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Bob Russell — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:37:21 GMT

I had a bunch of papers sent over from Bayer including Kopp 2013 Monitoring Field Susceptibility to
Imidacloprid in the Cat Flea.

Within this is:

"While no definitive evidence of high-level C. felis field resistance to the
neonicotinoid, avermectin, spinosyn or phenylpyrazole classes has been published to date, Payne and
colleagues (2001) have previously highlighted a flea
isolate that showed reduced susceptibility to topical fipronil from 20 days post treatment. Dryden
and colleagues (2005) observed a decline in topical
imidacloprid efficacy on cats challenged with infestation 30 days post treatment. A study by Franc
and Yao (2007) reported similar findings. It is not
entirely clear whether the effective shortening of
residual activity described in these reports reflects
an absolute reduction in efficacy, or a reduced
speed of kill (Kramer and Mencke 2001)."

I agree that it is dodgy to use the term resistance it is totally appropriate to talk of increased tolerance to a product.

I have advised people to use imidocloprid spot ons every four weeks and no longer. Sadly we have had several situations where dogs have come in hooching. Live fleas +++, flea dirt +++, no in contact pets and no break in Seresto collar use. Not swimmers, not constantly being shampoo'd.

The clincher for me? One month on from use of another product (Nexguard Spectra in our case), the fleas are gone, flea dirt minimal.

Already had to give one client a refund!

I believe fipronil spot-ons are a waste of good money. So many failures over the years. Stronghold still sound. Imidocloprid worrying.

Of course flea control is multifactorial and depends on owner compliance to some extent. Imidocloprid on supermarket shelves is likely to create the environment where 'resistance/product failure' will be a question of when.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:42:54 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] I tell owners that they will still see fleas on their animals regardless of what they use.[/quote]I had one recently that was hooching and it was sent home with Stronghold. Irate owner phoned the next day to say the cat still had fleas. On examination I took a coat brushing and at least 100 dead fleas fell off - fairly good proof its working I suggested and you best treat the environment. I'd hate to think how many larvae are lurking in the carpet!

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Tim Browning — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:22:26 GMT

To cheer people up I would say 'even the Queen's dogs get fleas' I don't know if they do but when I worked in Victoria we used to treat the Buckingham Palace servants dogs and they had fleas..

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Linda Filshie — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 00:07:53 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Emma Middleton"]treated the animals with frontline monthly and still fleas[/quote]

Nothing kills fleas instantly. (Conforms is the fastest? and this can take 4 hours)

[/quote]

Guessing that was a comfortis autocorrect?

Capstar is amazingly fast - I've seen them dropping off within 15minutes of administration

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:38:42 GMT

[quote user="Emma Middleton"]treated the animals with frontline monthly and still fleas[/quote]

Nothing kills fleas instantly. (Conforms is the fastest? and this can take 4 hours) so I tell owners that they will still see fleas on their animals regardless of what they use. If the house is still full of larvae it takes time to start to get things under control, typically 3 months. Is this why some products get a bad name. Check out Frontline http://www.frontline.com/plus/Pages/Faq.aspx It can take up to 12 hours to kill a flea, is that why folks think it's got a resistance problem?

In essence I tell them 2 things

1) Buy a single good product, use it as per the recommended data sheet (though in less technical language) and use it for at least 18 months, because.........

2) Do the house, but you won't get them all as flea eggs aren't sticky so will roll deep into the furniture

3) Don't buy any other products, you're wasting your money

If I'm feeling comical, I tell them to turn the central heating off to get the temperature under 15 degrees and save money because that'll get 'em, and that I was brought up in a farmhouse that was so cold my breathe condensed every morning, but heh we had no fleas.

Neil

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Emma Middleton — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:24:06 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]When fleas are a problem the main thing is treating the environment. Without doing that few pet treatments will completely control it. [/quote]

I agree Mariette. But also I often hear owners say they've sprayed the house in the last 6-12? months plus treated the animals with frontline monthly and still fleas. So after further questioning to check application etc I say "well it sounds like the Frontline's not working!" (and some people lie about how often they put it on). So I then say

"Here, have some Advocate/Bravecto/Nexgard."

Lecture on flea life cycle, hot washing and hoovering and spraying house/car/shed etc. Dispense Droncit.

Replay X 6 is my typical day currently!!

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:34:35 GMT

No problems with fleas in my neighbourhood (kidderminster, many cats) or practice Poole on the South coast. When fleas are a problem the main thing is treating the environment. Without doing that few pet treatments will completely control it.

Mariette

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:54:45 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]A lot of the OTC flea drops are now imidacloprid [/quote]Just Advantix which I have no issues with and some Bob Martins but not all. I personally think its a bad move putting imidacloprid in over the counter products which is likely to lead to poor advice and compliance.

On the other hand it could be that the manufacturers have realised that it isn't working as well and doing the same as Merial did when, as I believe, they realised we were complaining about lack of efficacy then (possibly slightly cynically) brought out Frontline Plus as their POM-V product.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Rob Loxley — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:40:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I don't see a problem with my client's pets as they're sold Stronghold or Advocate its the one buying Fipronil products or crap from Wilkinsons that have the problem[/quote]

A lot of the OTC flea drops are now imidacloprid - same as in Advocate

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:11:33 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]'There is no evidence of Fipronil resistance'. I'm a believer, it's the spot on packaging that's rubbish and the amount of active product in it, the spray still works.[/quote]OK then if this is the case why did it work for the first 20 odd years when the packaging hasn't fundamentally changed. I agree that its a challenge to apply properly and I'm fairly certain that this is one reason it failed in odd cases in the past, but you can't tell me that everyone has suddenly become useless at applying it now it doesn't seem to work at all.

As for the spray working I'm not convinced it has much residual action, certainly not for the months claimed. We spray flea ridden animals in for surgery and get almost immediate knockdown and joke that the alcohol incipient has made the fleas pissed so they fall off - I actually believe that may be near the truth. Or at least the loading dose is higher because it is immediate direct contact.

Re imicloprid, I've seen a couple of cases which I'm suspicious about but its not the almost complete failure we see with Fipronil so I'm not about to change yet although Nexgard Spectra is and excellent product and getting close to 50% of our dog flea product sales. Pity about the supply cock-up.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 15:10:58 GMT

'There is no evidence of Fipronil resistance'.

Bayer rep (really)

One word - Broadline

Neil

I'm a believer, it's the spot on packaging that's rubbish and the amount of active product in it, the spray still works.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 15:06:10 GMT

I am starting to doubt the efficacy of Imidocloprid. Only a few cases but the clients that have been grilled and there is no reason why the fleas should be there.

In all these cases a change to Nexguard or similar has made the flea problem invisible within a month.

Bayer have assured me it is not the imidocloprid but then Merial have been telling us for years that fipronil is still completely effective.

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Utlendigur — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 14:38:38 GMT

[quote user="Emma Middleton"]And definitely linked to use of Fipronil or Bob Martin's. [/quote]

I think there is something wrong with the frontline advertising or packaging that makes clients think you apply one vial every 3 months - it must say something along the lines of "3 months' protection" which the clients assume is per application. I even had one client in a few weeks ago who seriously thought that it was one every 6 months (she'd bought a 6 vial pack) and got quite angry with me when I suggested otherwise

RE: Is there a flea epidemic?

Emma Middleton — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:47:23 GMT

I'm in the Midlands. I am wondering how much is due to client behaviour and has there been a shift somewhere with buying prescription products or just not using anything? Or just climatic related?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Also depends what flea products you're dispensing. I don't see a problem with my client's pets as they're sold Stronghold or Advocate its the one buying Fipronil products or crap from Wilkinsons that have the problem[/quote]

Absolutely.

I locum and am in 3 different practices currently. It is definitely worse in the poor areas/low income clientele but not exclusively. And definitely linked to use of Fipronil or Bob Martin's. I see some with fleas that have had Advocate (never Bravecto or Nexgard) so I suspect it's incorrect use not inefficacy (is that a word?) of Advocate.

There is still such a stigma attached to fleas and I can see people are really uncomfortable and defensive when you discuss fleas. I find this really frustrating because so many clients spend the first 5 mins of the consult trying to defend themselves, explaining all the (pointless) things they've done (like pick 2 fleas off and squashed them or bathed the dog etc) or justifying why their pet might have fleas. I feel like a counsellor sometimes. "There there, it's ok.. we all get fleas at some stage... (well if you don't use a reliable flea treatment at the correct interval on all your animals)"