Telegraph article

RE: Telegraph article

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 14:39:20 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I don't know if agencies routinely ask for feedback from practices, but one can be fairly sure that any negative feedback will get back to you fairly quickly, client complaints etc. [/quote]After one locum we had last year, a Slovenian who neglected several cases to the extent they died, missed an obvious fractured femur and didn't even X-ray it, half a dozen other clients complained and threatened to report him and the nurses said they would leave if he ever came back, I gave this feedback to the locum agency. Earlier this year another solo vet called me for a reference for him after him being recommended by the same agency and she sounded quite shocked when I reiterated my experience and suggested that she would be better going away and not having a locum than employing him. I have to say he was the very worst we've ever and I made sure they realised this but the agency obviously didn't care.

RE: Telegraph article

Clive Ansell — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 14:02:17 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Do locums give feedback to agencies as well ? - I was certainly never asked[/quote]

I do, and I usually get asked, although I rarely use agencies these days.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]I assume agencies get feedback on locums they provide?[/quote]

I don't know if agencies routinely ask for feedback from practices, but one can be fairly sure that any negative feedback will get back to you fairly quickly, client complaints etc.

If I work somewhere new, I always welcome and ask for feedback. Don't usually get any, but do usually get invited back.

RE: Telegraph article

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 13:10:41 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]challenging, née horrible, attitude [/quote]

Lovely new metaphor coined there. I like it.

RE: Telegraph article

J G Wray — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 12:45:38 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I think we're going round in circles a bit, but all those things you say Trades Unions argue for are things which bring happiness in the workplace. [/quote]

I have found you an article on Countries with Ministries for Happiness. The Trades Unions may not be v strong here

http://aboutislam.net/family-society/culture/these-countries-have-a-ministry-of-happiness/

RE: Telegraph article

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 12:21:42 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Try employing people[/quote]

I have (had my own small PR agency for some years).

[quote user="J G Wray"]You may do, but... I can see Trades Unions arguing for better terms and conditions of employment, respect, consultation, diversity (the modern metaphor for anti-discrimination), equality and so on, but not the H word.[/quote]

I think we're going round in circles a bit, but all those things you say Trades Unions argue for are things which bring happiness in the workplace.

[quote user="J G Wray"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]So I think people DO, justifiably, feel an entitlement to happiness at work. It's just not expressed using that one word.[/quote][/quote]

[quote user="J G Wray"] it is not, in my opinion, an entitlement.[/quote]

To which I would ask the question: what do people do when their workplace makes them unhappy?

They leave (if they can).

Now whether this because they feel 'entitled' or not is for me, slightly beside the point. They clearly feel happiness is achievable, and if it isn't offered where they are, then they'll look for it elsewhere.

[quote user="J G Wray"]The workplace is not a fun factory dedicated to happiness.[/quote]

Laughed out loud. No, I am not suggesting it is, necessarily. I just think it's more important than a by-product.

[quote user="J G Wray"]I have yet to issue a contract of employment which stipulates how much happiness the employee will appreciate.[/quote]

Of course you don't, for much the same reason that people don't walk out on strike for more 'happiness'. But presumably, when you advertise a job you highlight all those aspects that are likely to make the prospective candidate think they are going to be happy working for you.

[quote user="J G Wray"]You'd be surprised how extrinsic factors are brought to work and here I will give you an example - an employee's personal relationship has broken down. The other half fed and walked the dogs. The employee asks for a variation in working hours which would kick the rota where other members of staff with dogs manage.

The rationalisation of this by the employee is that we are the problem.[/quote]

I'm really surprised by that. I'm not questioning you. I'm just surprised that an employee asking for a change in hours would think the employer is the problem if the answer is no. Was the impact of their request on the other employees explained to them properly?

RE: Telegraph article

J G Wray — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:47:30 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]But when you think about it, that is exactly what Trades Unions do. They fight for more happiness.....[/quote]

You may do, but... I can see Trades Unions arguing for better terms and conditions of employment, respect, consultation, diversity (the modern metaphor for anti-discrimination), equality and so on, but not the H word.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]OK, so they don't use the term happiness, because it is such a subjective thing and anyway, they'd sound a bit silly if they did.[/quote]

You are right that they don't use this term, but I'm not sure you can assert happiness is the word then say actually it's something else, another word, a cipher, for all this other stuff.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]So I think people DO, justifiably, feel an entitlement to happiness at work. It's just not expressed using that one word.[/quote]

As an employer I don't. The workplace is not a fun factory dedicated to happiness. If we can provide a workplace that provides, err, work and something else, beyond that, which allows contentment and professional fulfilment in return for payment, social interaction in a team and enhancing animal welfare then we have succeeded in some way. If an employee finds the H word as a by product of what we are about, a consequence, an outcome then fine. However, it is not, in my opinion, an entitlement.

I have yet to issue a contract of employment which stipulates how much happiness the employee will appreciate.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]in times of unhappiness that are extrinsic in cause there is no entitlement to expect work to fix the unhappiness. [/quote]

Isn't that stating the obvious? I mean who on earth expects work to fix unhappiness caused by things outside work

[/quote]

You'd be surprised how extrinsic factors are brought to work and here I will give you an example - an employee's personal relationship has broken down. The other half fed and walked the dogs. The employee asks for a variation in working hours which would kick the rota where other members of staff with dogs manage.

The rationalisation of this by the employee is that we are the problem. We've had petulance, social media discussion and rudeness. It's all understandable and we know we are the sounding board for their unhappiness, but we ain't the ones to fix things.

Try employing people

RE: Telegraph article

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 11:00:48 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Having been a locum and manager I can assure you that there are some terrible locums and some excellent locums[/quote]Having employed locums over the past 37 years there have been less than a handful who were so totally awful I doubt they ever qualified let alone have them back - they were all foreign graduates apart from one retired dinovet. Equally I've had a handful who have been absolutely brilliant but the majority have been pretty average - much like the rest of the profession really. The best ones have been found by word of mouth and Dovetail Locum Agency when Simon Bird ran it, the worst have been from the big locum agencies. I wonder sometimes if they actually consider the practice's requirements, vet or interview applicants or listen to feedback from previous employers.

RE: Telegraph article

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:22:10 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="David Mills"]Now being in a management position I've seen the damage locums can cause (n=4). More trouble than...? [/quote]

What damage do they/we cause ? genuinely interested as I am always keen to improve the service I provide to practices.

Is that 4 out of 4, or 4 over . . . . . ages?

I have no desire to try and teach management how to suck eggs, but maybe you need to re evaluate how you source, select and treat your locums? we're not all bad.

[/quote]

Err - That's quite a generalisation from some unfortunate experiences.

Having been a locum and manager I can assure you that there are some terrible locums and some excellent locums

There are excellent managers and some bloody awful ones too.

I assume agencies get feedback on locums they provide?

Do locums give feedback to agencies as well ? - I was certainly never asked

RE: Telegraph article

Clive Ansell — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 06:16:39 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Now being in a management position I've seen the damage locums can cause (n=4). More trouble than...? [/quote]

What damage do they/we cause ? genuinely interested as I am always keen to improve the service I provide to practices.

Is that 4 out of 4, or 4 over . . . . . ages?

I have no desire to try and teach management how to suck eggs, but maybe you need to re evaluate how you source, select and treat your locums? we're not all bad.

RE: Telegraph article

David Mills — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 01:23:49 GMT

I do love it when locums or backwater single handed practitioners sound off and take the piss about management. The irony is almost tangible.

I agree with JGW. it's a challenging, née horrible, attitude when people want everything from everything without sled examination.

Now being in a management position I've seen the damage locums can cause (n=4). More trouble than...?

RE: Telegraph article

Clive Ansell — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 17:11:36 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]My worst client shouting in consult incident was a few years ago, over a £45 estimate for sedation, lancing and antibiotics for a cat bite abscess. How do you avoid that? [/quote]

That's cheap! where I am at the moment, with the initial consultation, it would be around £100-£120

As Martin says, cannot prevent, so just tell them to go and engage in mating activity somewhere else.

Only way to really prevent would be to move to the home counties, Basingstoke maybe; it is a utopic paradise where clients are all model citizens and never misbehave

RE: Telegraph article

Chris Milligan — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 16:45:16 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

It's very easy to blame the clients in these situations, and whilst no-one should be the subject of abuse at work, one can possibly understand their reasons for that anger...£250 for a CBA is absolutely extortionate.

[/quote]

Was. Money is devalued over time. 300K is absolutely extortionate for a house but it's what new buyers are having to do

RE: Telegraph article

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:22:37 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]Recently a client abandoned a puppy with an intussusception with us, and didn't answer any phone calls after finding out it wasn't a quick cheap injection fix.[/quote]You're lucky, we've had them demand compensation or threaten violence because the animal died or been re-homed when they've called back several weeks later!

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]The places I've worked where staff have no sense of humour, the boss is only critical and never complimentary, the staff don't talk to each other during breaks but stare at their phones, are the places where I've been most unhappy. [/quote]Do places like that still really exist? Why would you continue to work there?

RE: Telegraph article

Bibs — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:15:09 GMT

My worst client shouting in consult incident was a few years ago, over a £45 estimate for sedation, lancing and antibiotics for a cat bite abscess. How do you avoid that?

I've never been felt physically threatened. I've just experienced lots of unpleasantness and abruptness. Recently a client abandoned a puppy with an intussusception with us, and didn't answer any phone calls after finding out it wasn't a quick cheap injection fix. There are a lot of scum bags out there.

It's a stressful job and you do need to make sure your team is supportive and harmonious in order to be resilient and continue to get satisfaction at work. I think it if you don't have a bond with people at work you just start to dread the problems you're going to deal with rather than feeling positive.

The places I've worked where staff have no sense of humour, the boss is only critical and never complimentary, the staff don't talk to each other during breaks but stare at their phones, are the places where I've been most unhappy.

RE: Telegraph article

Julie Innes — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 09:18:37 GMT

I definitely think the "unhappiness" in my particular workplace is driven by clients, and I would guess the ones that cause us problems also cause problems elsewhere, so are a nuisance to society in general!

You talk of "coping" mechanisms, but to me a "happy" team IS a coping mechanism! We all come and sound off to each other about what Mrs X is saying now, and it helps to have the sympathy (?empathy) of the rest of the team. We have dealt with breakups, breakdowns, financial issues and more within the team, and we listen to and support each other. That is what I mean by a "happy" team- not that everyone is happy all the time, but that one person's unhappiness doesn't negatively affect the rest, rather that the rest try to help the unhappy person (bit garbled, but hopefully you know what I mean!!)

I like to think I have good communication skills, and our prices are reasonable, so we actually don't get too much moaning. But I have been on the receiving end of a tirade of abuse from a junkie, where he threatened my family, my business and my home! We had to get the police to remove him, and it took them a long time to come. It was a horribly stressful experience, which ended with court appearances (also stressful) before he was sentenced to prison for the level of stress he had caused us. No amount of inward change is going to make you feel ok about someone threatening to burn down your house with your children inside. No amount of communication wityh a junkie aff his heid is going to calm him down. He wants £40, and he is going to say whatever it takes. Sorry, but I genuinely believe the world would be better without people like him in it. Why should society have to tolerate this??

RE: Telegraph article

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:53:48 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]You work on your own now right?[/quote]

yep.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Even Trades Unions don't fight for their members' right, their entitlement to be happy.[/quote]

That conjures up a slightly pythonesque image in my mind of groups of striking workers with banners demanding more happiness. More happiness? Well how much more happiness do you want today? 30 minutes worth? An hour? How would you like your happiness? A tickle on the ribs? A mildly amusing joke? Put in enough overtime and we'll tell you one that'll make your sides split.

But when you think about it, that is exactly what Trades Unions do. They fight for more happiness.

OK, so they don't use the term happiness, because it is such a subjective thing and anyway, they'd sound a bit silly if they did. So they fight for the things that they think will make the majority of the workforce happier. More money. Less work. Better working conditions. And so on.

So I think people DO, justifiably, feel an entitlement to happiness at work. It's just not expressed using that one word.

[quote user="J G Wray"]in times of unhappiness that are extrinsic in cause there is no entitlement to expect work to fix the unhappiness. [/quote]

Isn't that stating the obvious? I mean who on earth expects work to fix unhappiness caused by things outside work?

[quote user="J G Wray"]There can be a culture of team at work, but not of family, because when the systems break down, perhaps pressurised by extrinsic factors, the shortcomings/rancour/sense of disloyalty in a family setting will be profoundly worse than a business like team setting.[/quote]

Not sure I understand the relevance.

RE: Telegraph article

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:22:04 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] I suppose I have changed in that I now work far fewer hours so the inevitable stress of practice is finite for me. Or to put it another way, I can put up with all the crap as I don't have to work full-time any more! [/quote]

Yet you write:

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] All very well if you are a partner in a practice in an affluent area, where the clients have known you a long time and respect you. But OOH work brings out the lowest of the pond life.[/quote]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]I think client behaviour is an important issue. Along with long hours and working conditions it is the leading cause of stress and unhappiness in the profession which can lead to depression, addiction and suicide - as well of course as vets leaving the profession.[/quote]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]You sound like a Michael Jackson record.[/quote]

It looks to me like you haven't found your balance yet if there's still crap even though you've sort of changed.

[/quote]

I may sound cynical in my posts but I still enjoy practice. I enjoy working with animals, being part of a team - particularly in practices with younger graduates. I learn from them and vice versa. But I wouldn't enjoy it if I was still working 50-60+ hour working weeks week in week out.

RE: Telegraph article

J G Wray — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:58:28 GMT

Yet you write:

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]You sound like a Michael Jackson record.[/quote]

It looks to me like you haven't found your balance yet if there's still crap even though you've sort of changed.

RE: Telegraph article

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:37:51 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

The conversation develops next to how would you feel if your reason for working were interfered with , hidebound or removed from you?

[/quote]

Thank you doctor

Why are you asking how would I feel? Would it not better to ask what I would do?

RE: Telegraph article

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:29:49 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Ok then. A/ Why do I need to change and b/ Who are you to judge whether I need to change? [/quote]

More deflection. You had no problem about asking me a question, to which I replied. Perhaps I should ask it differently - are you seeking to make your work congruent to your values or can you be flexible?

[/quote]

No deflection, just asking you a question. You suggested I should change and I asked you why/how? To answer your question, I suppose I have changed in that I now work far fewer hours so the inevitable stress of practice is finite for me. Or to put it another way, I can put up with all the crap as I don't have to work full-time any more!

RE: Telegraph article

J G Wray — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:26:00 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]You see, I don't see work as an 'opportunity to express my veterinary identity', rather being a vet is for me a tool to do what I enjoy.[/quote]

Ok that's three reasons for working as a vet. Any more?

The conversation develops next to how would you feel if your reason for working were interfered with , hidebound or removed from you?

RE: Telegraph article

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:21:19 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

he was beyond the reach of society.

[/quote]

Isn't that the problem in his industry and it is in ours?

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]What is it then the purpose of work and the workplace?[/quote]

Personally, after many years of reflection, it's all rather existential and in summary, work and the workplace are the framework, the opportunity to express my veterinary identity.

How about you?

[/quote]

Well, the purpose of the workplace is surely what Evelyn has said.

But I'm guessing part of the reason we don't get an agreement in this debate lies on the definition of happiness itself.

What about me?

I take that about 1/3 of my life is bound to happen at work. Another third would happen sleeping and then there is the other third.

If I'm not what I consider 'happy' at work, I would be living a miserable one third of my life and I would probably not sleep well either.

I come to work to sustain myself but I would choose a lower income (and I have chosen this several times in my life) if that means I would have a better QOL for me and my family. I do realise however that I can't extrapolate this feeling to everyone elses.

You see, I don't see work as an 'opportunity to express my veterinary identity', rather being a vet is for me a tool to do what I enjoy.

RE: Telegraph article

J G Wray — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:19:25 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Ok then. A/ Why do I need to change and b/ Who are you to judge whether I need to change? [/quote]

RE: Telegraph article

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:04:51 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I vividly remember that morning when she had to tell me the King of Pop was gone.

Im sure options for coping were available to him (he had a few quid to his name) without the need to rely on propoflo to help him sleep. Somehow however society didn't reach him soon enough to stop him or he didn't 'accept' there were some changes he needed to make.

[/quote]While I would not wish to dismiss the issues leading to Michael Jackson's problems, he was surely at another level altogether from a vet suffering from work related stress. Very few of us will ever experience the effects of such extremes of warped family life, lack of normality, expectation of celebrity and wealth beyond our dreams at such an early age. In truth he led as abnormal a life as it is possible to imagine, he was beyond the reach of society.

RE: Telegraph article

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:03:17 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]It's not just my opinion etc.[/quote]

Do you accept in any way that you could change?

[/quote]

You sound like a Michael Jackson record.

[/quote]

Ah an example of a deflection

[/quote]

Ok then. A/ Why do I need to change and b/ Who are you to judge whether I need to change?