Would you start again?

RE: Would you start again?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 19:05:24 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Don't worry Martin...was posting while decorating and doing lots of errands (day off...lol!) so possibly got confused myself!

However, one thing I would say is :

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You said you'd feel guilty if you left[/quote]

Maybe that is where you got confused...Julie Innes said that... I said the opposite - that nobody should feel guilty or a failure for walking away from the veterinary profession if it no longer 'floats their boat'. YOLO!

[/quote]Doh!

RE: Would you start again?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:57:45 GMT

Don't worry Martin...was posting while decorating and doing lots of errands (day off...lol!) so possibly got confused myself!

However, one thing I would say is :

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]You said you'd feel guilty if you left[/quote]

RE: Would you start again?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 17:12:43 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

No...you've completely missed the point Martin. [/quote] I think you're the one whose missed the point or at least changed track. You said you'd feel guilty if you left I just used some different words. The plumber has nothing to do with it, I never suggested anyone else should feel a failure, just that I would for myself.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I think that is a compliment....but it is undeserved. I know that you didn't mean anything personally, but, just to make it clear.....[/quote] It was a compliment and I'm not sure why you'd then think there was a insult in there so I'm confused. I just thought you were as much as an athlete as Ian.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

certainly does not apply to him.

[/quote]Apply to who? Now I'm totally confused.

RE: Would you start again?

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 15:19:42 GMT

I was hassled by invitations to sell arriving almost daily. Thought I might as well just dip a toe in the water but IVC checked out all the figures then told me they had a minimum turnover requirement that was far in excess of any single vet practice! More fool them as our turnover seems to be going up faster than I can adapt to it at the moment!

Wasted a bit of my time but at least I seem to have been taken off their mailing list!!!

RE: Would you start again?

Julie Innes — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 15:00:11 GMT

I think Martin is right, as far as the way I feel. I am stubborn, and hate to feel I've "given up" on anything. I could walk away- as Bob said the offers to sell my practice to the Big Boys come in the door every couple of days, but......

I guess I do enjoy my job deep down, and can't see myself doing anything else, although there are certainly days when I could see it far enough!! Can't honestly think what I would do otherwise- all the things I think I might have enjoyed would mean long retraining, and I don't think I could face that!

I certainly don't think any less of others who have changed careers/ stopped being a vet (quite a few people I know). But I agree the profession is quite a different thing than it was when I started many years ago. It does make me sad to see fewer and fewer independent practices, and the huge levels of debt that students have to get into these days, but I guess the world is changing in so many ways (God, I sound like such an old gimmer!)

RE: Would you start again?

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 14:02:11 GMT

Despite my grumbling and tut tutting at the state of the profession I cannot see myself doing anything else. Never really could however bumpy the path became.

Perhaps because heart of hearts I know it is the right place for me or it might be I have very little imagination. A lot I would have done differently though.

I still hate the direction the profession has gone in and would be a fool to do it again if I was lucky enough to have the chance to do it all over.

Just us and the big practice down the road that are independents for miles in all directions. I bet they have been fending off the offers with a stick!

RE: Would you start again?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 12:59:41 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I kind of feel the same only guilt may not be the first word I'd use, possibly more a feeling of failure and regret, loss of pride and self esteem.

Let's not distort this by belittling those who suffer anxiety and depression and for whom the pressures that come with the profession may be too great and it was a poor choice

[/quote]

No...you've completely missed the point Martin.

Take a plumber. They've been a plumber for 20 years. They've enjoyed it and been very successful. But now they don't want to be a plumber anymore. Whether through boredom, other interests or simply a hatred of running water, I don't think anyone would consider them as having 'failed' because they retrain as a lumberjack, having developed a love of trees.

Get it?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I kind of feel Gillian and I are made of similar stuff, we're both sportsmenpersons, the idea of giving up just because it gets hard is anathema, in fact it's what drives us on to try harder and we apply this to our profession. [/quote]

I think that is a compliment....but it is undeserved. Certainly I am a competitive person...I can't do anything by halves...but I consider my job to be a fairly minor part of my life these days, and, when the time is right, will walk away from it.

Ian, as you may know, is a twice ironman triathlete. (3.8k swim, 160k bike, marathon.) He is far more competitive than me! I know that you didn't mean anything personally, but, just to make it clear,

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Let's not distort this by belittling those who suffer anxiety and depression and for whom the pressures that come with the profession may be too great and it was a poor choice [/quote]

certainly does not apply to him.

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 12:41:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] kind of feel the same only guilt may not be the first word I'd use, possibly more a feeling of failure and regret, loss of pride and self esteem.[/quote]

Yes, I had feelings of failure in my first job for a while.

Is this uncommon?

Because my arms were "too short" for calvings I had some special hooks and cutters made which extended beyond my ears [and never used them].

I think one person's "bullying" is, often, a resilient person's "good advice."

RE: Would you start again?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:10:38 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I would certainly feel a lot of guilt if I were to leave the profession, knowing how hard I worked to get into it, and how many others are desperate to get into it.[/quote]

Really? Guilt???

[/quote]I kind of feel the same only guilt may not be the first word I'd use, possibly more a feeling of failure and regret, loss of pride and self esteem.

Let's not distort this by belittling those who suffer anxiety and depression and for whom the pressures that come with the profession may be too great and it was a poor choice but that does not apply to the vast majority of us. I kind of feel Gillian and I are made of similar stuff, we're both sportsmenpersons, the idea of giving up just because it gets hard is anathema, in fact it's what drives us on to try harder and we apply this to our profession.

He may not be everyone's cup of tea but one truism that Lance Armstrong came out with is: 'Pain is temporary, quitting is forever'. This doesn't only apply to sport.

RE: Would you start again?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:55:21 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I would certainly feel a lot of guilt if I were to leave the profession, knowing how hard I worked to get into it, and how many others are desperate to get into it.[/quote]

Really? Guilt???

Do you feel any other professional, or indeed tradesperson, should feel any guilt about deciding to earn their daily crust doing something else?

I've said it before, but I do think this all ties in with the depression and mental health issues the profession has. The pressure of feeling trapped and unable to get out of a job you no longer enjoy, and may actually be finding extremely stressful. Especially if you happen to own the business.

As most know, me and hubbie sold our practice this year and hubbie has decided to stop vetting altogether for the foreseeable future. And he is a much happier man for it. He is an excellent vet and we grew a very successful business..... but despite being unhappy it didn't occur to him that stopping being a vet was an option! (It took a very angry wife who was sick of living with Mr Grumpy for him to make that confession! )

RE: Would you start again?

Julie Innes — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:03:53 GMT

I would certainly feel a lot of guilt if I were to leave the profession, knowing how hard I worked to get into it, and how many others are desperate to get into it.

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 00:34:51 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Many many people change career direction during their lives.[/quote]

True, but how many change because vetting is the best job for them?

Vets change career because they have found a job or career that suits them better and this will include vets who can't cope with vetting as well as vets who have found something better, easier, pays more etc. etc. as we have had examples on here.

Difficulty comes when leavers blame vetting and not themselves.

I trained as a steeplejack but became afraid of heights....... or too few people to talk to at work.....

RE: Would you start again?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:08:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]whether you believe it is morally correct for someone who trained as a vet to do something drastically different! [/quote]

Eh? I have been fascinated by the occasional comments which insinuate that anyone changing career has somehow 'failed' as a vet!!!

Many many people change career direction during their lives. Why on Earth should a vet be made they have 'failed' or in some way let people down by deciding to do something different? Ridiculous. You only get one life.....!!!

RE: Would you start again?

Martin Hamilton — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 19:37:35 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="bevs2251"]Many left for a different (more lucrative) career [/quote]

I have heard this claim of a better paid alternative outside vetting made, or implied, many times over the years but I have rarely seen any verifiable examples in support. I know of a number of people who have left the profession, for a variety of reasons, and almost all of them reduced both their immediate income and their future earning capacity by the move.

I remain happy to be convinced by some evidence but I do wonder whether this might be another example (to use Gillian Mostyn's wonderful phrase) of the grass appearing greener on the other side of the fence because of all the bulls*t.

[/quote]

Out of the 60 or so UK graduates in my year, I know of three who have already dropped out of the veterinary profession, however only one of them is a close friend, so I'm not sure how much the others are making. Two have gone into banking, one went back to farming with his father (who I assume is making less than he would have been as a vet).

My friend is working at Lloyds bank, entered their new graduate scheme in a fast track stream due to the high regard held for a vet degree, where he was paid £35k per annum. He has now moved onto to manage an online banking team dealing with cybersecurity (though I don't know all the ins and outs). Two years out of uni he is on £50k, works from home 3 out of 5 days a week and has some nice benefits such as company car, fuel allowance, phone allowance etc.

I think that the fact a vet degree is one of the few left that is still very competitive and worth something really opens up more doors these days. Maybe it wasn't the same for the older generations but a vet degree is now looked upon very highly regardless of what field you want to go in to. Probably something to do with problem solving, assumed people skills etc. Personally I can't think of anything worse than banking, but whatever floats someone's boat I guess. Lucky for me it means someone else is happy to pay for an extra round of drinks when we meet up!
Considering I'm only 15 months out, it's quite a worrying trend. Again it comes back to the people being admitted to vet school, their drive and whether you believe it is morally correct for someone who trained as a vet to do something drastically different!

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 11:30:08 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"][quote user="Anthony Todd"]Less than 1/2 my year are still in practice. Many left for a different (more lucrative) career years ago ! [/quote][/quote]

This was not my experience but bevs2251, my year 1961 it was about 3 in 20+

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 11:25:28 GMT

" Eighty-five per cent of doctors have experienced mental health issues; 13 percent reprort that they have felt suicidal. The support offered is minimal"

from:

This is Going to Hurt Adam Kay reviewed in MOSunday

RE: Would you start again?

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 10:56:37 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]Many left for a different (more lucrative) career [/quote]

RE: Would you start again?

Julian Earl — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 10:39:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Less than 1/2 my year are still in practice. Many left for a different (more lucrative) career years ago ! [/quote]

No other job could have paid me enough to replace the satisfaction of achieving my childhood dream of being a vet. That is despite the "shock" of what it was like being ion call. One knows one has to do it but the reality was tough. Otherwise, the job satisfaction has been immense, which is quite literally priceless! A number of my year have also left the profession, usually because we are getting to that age! We're all over 21 now so new careers do not beckon! Retirement does instead!

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 09 Sep 2017 16:07:02 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"] Less than 1/2 my year are still in practice. Many left for a different (more lucrative) career years ago ! [/quote]

Wow, the first indication of numbers. My year at QLD [1961 grad] it's only about 3 out of 20+.

So why has this change occurred!!!! I keep asking but no concrete statistics yet but the RC say they'll data mine for us, soon I hope.

It's important at all sorts of levels!!

RE: Would you start again?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 09 Sep 2017 15:30:12 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"]Corporatisation has its benefits (no after hours work any more) but certainly has its negatives (refer anything slightly difficult). [/quote]

There is obviously a balance to be found, but am I the only one who finds the option to refer can mean less stress??? I remember having horribly fractured limbs where my skills didn't extend to external fixation so amputation was carried out...with me knowing full well that surgery could have saved it? Same with difficult internal medicine cases...such as where a comprehensive ultrasound exam in expert hands could prevent unnecessary exploratory laparotomy.

My first job was in North Cumbria so referral to the Scottish universities was our only option.... if you could persuade the boss to let you! The general rule was to muddle through and do your best...usually with the text book on the end of the table. Yes, it was a tremendous learning opportunity and you really got to develop your skills....but I also remember crying in theatre when it wasn't going well and there was nobody else in the building for support!!!

It is a shame that the ever-present threat of being sued prevents vets from trying new things...but being expected to handle everything yourself was no picnic either. I, for one, really appreciate the ability to send my ortho cases elsewhere and sleep easier in my bed at night for not having to worry about them falling apart again!!!

RE: Would you start again?

bevs2251 — Sat, 09 Sep 2017 05:20:32 GMT

All the reasons Bob Lehner has outlined are the same in Australia. I would probably do Vet Science again when I did it (1981-1985) but certainly not now for all the reasons he has elucidated, + the extra one of people being much more inclined to sue or complain this century so more VSB investigations ! Less than 1/2 my year are still in practice. Many left for a different (more lucrative) career years ago ! It's the same in the USA.

Corporatisation has its benefits (no after hours work any more) but certainly has its negatives (refer anything slightly difficult).

RE: Would you start again?

Julian Earl — Tue, 05 Sep 2017 18:47:41 GMT

Yes I would but differently. I was a workaholic at university and wish I had taken more time for leisure interests as well. Mind, if I'd done that I might not have made the grade? I always envied those really bright sparks in the year who were always at the top of the results charts pinned on the wall. Without effort it aoppeared sometimes! I have loved my job, feeling lucky that I was by and large in control of my destiny. Apart from when on call at night! But making all the decisions for oneself has to be a good thing. Since stopping work I have missed the contact with the animals every day, and even missed the contact with some of the humans as well! No other job could have fulfilled my desire to learn about animals as this one had.

I would hate to be a student again though with all the complications of loans and finance. It was much simpler just collecting one's grant-cheques.

When I qualified I thought, right that's it, no more exams! So what did I do? Studied for two Certificates over the years! Ah well!!

RE: Would you start again?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 05 Sep 2017 10:52:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]I scraped in because of my dairy work and copious work experience [/quote]In the end I got acceptable grades at A level but I'm sure the motivation I'd shown with masses of work experience while at school swung it at interview.

Re other posts which suggest that those who struggled to start with are mostly happy and still working, does this not suggest that those of us who were so motivated that we pushed on through thick and thin are by default more likely to remain more motivated than those who found it easy? We've already discussed here and elsewhere that 'generation snowflake' is more likely to be unable to cope and struggle mentally the first time things don't go well for them as they've never been used to failure of anything else than living in a bed of roses.

When the going gets tough the tough get going.

RE: Would you start again?

David Mills — Tue, 05 Sep 2017 10:25:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] I know a leading law firm in London only considers graduates from Oxford or Cambridge.[/quote]

Quite right too.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I can't help feeling that training vets is a good earner for the universities, new or old[/quote]

Possibly. Vet training for UK undergrads is still heavily subsidised by the government - used to be about £125k/student. That was the traditional limiter of numbers. However education (arguably about time too) is now a capitalist endeavour, so there is, theoretically, no limit on numbers except the logistics of university educational establishments, and RCVS accreditation. Interesting times.

RE: Would you start again?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 05 Sep 2017 09:56:57 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Agreed but are we on the road to the 'Spanish system' where we train 5000 a year and then select after qualification. (Keele, NI, Wales, University of nowhere....) It's an incredibly wasteful system to candidates but grand for universities.[/quote]

Yes, I can't help feeling that training vets is a good earner for the universities, new or old.....

Gotta pay those vice-chancellors somehow!