Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

J G Wray — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 20:14:36 GMT

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]Whatever you do J G Wray don’t tell Rebel Arlo Guthrie what to do!![/quote]

Nope, remember the suggestion for Rebels who are quite frankly a pain in the arse to work with. Inform them of what needs to be done, present them with the consequences for them of not being a team player and let them dwell on their choices, then allow the consequences to happen and do not at any point remind them.

Rebels are the sorts who have had many jobs, none of which suited them for long.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Sarah McGurk — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 15:38:01 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]

And it would be helpful if anyone who has managed a practice could offer any tools they had found useful.

[/quote]

Possibly, but then you need an audience that might listen, consider and then act.

I think most on this list enjoy the problems. In that respect, this list, which is still sitting at the "problem" stage is behind the work being done. In that respect, contributions from this list to the problem solving are few.

There is little here beyond being a Cassandra and what there is is treated like a foreign language and we know how reluctant the British are to learn foreign languages - nicht wahr?

[/quote]Well quite. The comments in that post were only made because Arlo asked what could be done to improve communication from the other side, as it were. My original suggestion was that any solutions are best offered to those who are suffering, as they will be the ones looking for help. This was my original comment, and I still think the best solution will be aimed in that direction.

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]

I think your survey is useful Arlo. It is giving a voice to those who are struggling. The responses here are useful too. It strikes me that the best way forward is to create resources that are readily available for those people to tap into. You will never persuade the aggressive to moderate their behaviour, so those who are too passive need ideally to modify their behaviour to more assertive patterns.

There is a board on Mumsnet, where abused women come and receive very practical advice on how to escape their situation from other women who have found a way out already. Many of those posting are so far down the rabbit hole that they have lost sight of what is normal. It’s not perfect, but in general, it is a good resource.

I am reminded of the first book I ever read on the subject of assertiveness, having recognised that my passive behaviour patterns were destructive to my mental health. I had to read it in a book that I had a right to an opinion and that I should be able to express that opinion without being demeaned or ridiculed. I had to learn strategies to help myself. It would have been wonderful if there had been resources that were easy to access.

[/quote]

Whatever you do J G Wray don’t tell Rebel Arlo Guthrie what to do!!

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:54:23 GMT

Tim Browning - what an interesting post (divergent/convergent).

[quote user="Tim Browning"]I won't mention any names but the future of the profession should be more Rosie.[/quote]

Very good

[quote user="Tim Browning"]Thank you Arlo for this survey which can only help make the profession a better place to have a career.[/quote]

Wow, what a generous thing to say ... thank you Tim. I certainly hope that is the net effect. That is the aim of the exercise, anyway.

There are so many strands to all of this; I'll try and summarise the main points people have raised later today, and you all can then spin any that you think merit further discussion into tangent discussions.

And as we enter into the season of goodwill, I'm also going to start a tangent from here asking for reports of good behaviour in practice!

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 11:32:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Are veterinary surgeons – or indeed veterinary nurses – particularly bad at man management?[/quote]I suspect the problem is that we became vets or nurses to treat animals not to run a business and the management issues have been rather thrust upon us, plus I received no lessons in business management so we're probably not particularly bad, we're just not very good. One exception at least: I hope he will forgive me for saying this if he reads it but Philip Goddard, despite/or maybe because his father being a vet, once told me that he only became a vet because he wanted to run a veterinary practice and in that regard he has been spectacularly successful.

I'm pretty sure I'm a useless manager and my staff are more likely to take advantage of me than vice-versa. I've just muddled along as much as I've had to and adopted an approach of treating others as I would like to be treated myself. Probably why I'm not rich but it would appear that it worked as far as my staff loyalty goes.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Tim Browning — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 10:55:35 GMT

[quote user="Sally Everitt"]I wonder if as veterinary surgeons we have a tendency to see many problems in terms of making a “diagnosis” and offering a “treatment”/ solution. I am not a manager and hesitate to express any views on this subject, but I wonder if what is needed in terms of “man management” is an approach more akin to parenting, where our role is not always to provide a solution but rather to provide a safe environment in which staff can find their own solutions. [/quote]

I agree with this and I think the concept of Divergent as apposed to Convergent problems can be useful.

Convergent problems are those with a definite fixed solution, such as a mathematical based problem or rota swap based on an algorithm.

Divergent problems have no final solution and have issues held in balance. These are the more human problems that perhaps vets as managers are not so good at (however I have worked with many non vet managers who don't necessarily exhibit any superior level of emotional intelligence).

A good example is parenting. You usually love your children but have to discipline them for a long time and it is very difficult to get the balance right. Partners can fall out over differing approach and there is not a closed solution to the problem. Managing the staff at work is similar in that hopefully you like/love a lot of them but they can be very naughty boys and girls. It never ends but there are techniques and behaviours that facilitate the process. Openness by all staff especially managers and demonstrable fairness are key to a safe and healthy work environment.

The problem is where the Divergent problem is treated like a Convergent problem and a quick solution such a disciplinary process (quick?) is employed.

I feel vets do tend to be analytical types looking for yes/ no solutions and not trained to employ shaded discrimination based approaches to life, which may be more associated with the arts rather than the sciences.

After a long career it is depressing that mental health, wellbeing, and retention issues in the profession still needs so much work. What is heartening is the level of discussion about these issues and the professional analysis by several individuals helping the profession, I won't mention any names but the future of the profession should be more Rosie.

In the old days matters were buried, like in so many institutions, the Vet Record would not publish anything controversial about embarrassing social issues. It would bring the profession into disrepute! Other print media were slow to pick up on difficult issues. Now we have social media and message boards...

Thank you Arlo for this survey which can only help make the profession a better place to have a career.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 09:29:51 GMT

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]That is absolutely true, but is the aggressive client aware that you would put yourselves out more for someone else? As you’ve said, they get good treatment. They are, by and large, getting what they want. There is nothing in that scenario to cause them to question their behaviour or cause them to seek help.

In other practices, they may get better treatment through being pushy. They may well decide they don’t like your practice and find another where the staff are not empowered to be so assertive.

[/quote]

I don't think they are always getting what they want. If they are demanding something that isn't normally available, like an appointment at a time when we don't have one, then they don't get it. Whether that is enough to make them go somewhere else I don't know, some people are just trying their luck and will accept it when you say no.

I did once talk to a client about how he'd spoken to one of our receptionists, he later apologised to her and hasn't caused any problems since.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

J G Wray — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 07:29:36 GMT

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]

And it would be helpful if anyone who has managed a practice could offer any tools they had found useful.

[/quote]

Possibly, but then you need an audience that might listen, consider and then act.

There is little here beyond being a Cassandra and what there is is treated like a foreign language and we know how reluctant the British are to learn foreign languages - nicht wahr?

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Sarah McGurk — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 21:57:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

This seems to make a lot of sense to me, Sarah, although I think there is another factor that is crucial in all of this, and which is perhaps not dependent on personality type. It is:

Good communication / aka 'talking about it'.

What happens when communication is not as good as it should be between two people? Well, I think these forums well illustrate my point. I can think of a few times when I've sat here boiling with rage over (or hurt by) something someone posted. But with a great many years experience of this medium, I usually recognise it as a weakness of the written word; that if I were sitting there talking to the person, we'd probably get along fine.

Whilst you're not all communicating in practice via the written word alone, there are limitations to the spoken word too. I mentioned it before, but there are lots of times when people don't say what they are thinking because maybe they don't think it's their place, or they're embarrassed to say so. As often as not, they then express themselves in other ways, which are probably more hurtful than saying what was on their mind in the first place.

For example, colleague A has appalling hallitosis. Colleague B is too embarrassed to say something, so they avoid working with colleague B, and take the piss out of them behind their back.

That's a bit facile. I'll bet in practice it's more likely to occur when one of you thinks the other is doing a bad job, but don't want to say so, either out of embarrassment or because it's not your place.

Maybe I'm talking crap here, I'd be interested to know what you think. And if you think there is any truth to this, the question is what strategies can be used to improve team communication, esp over difficult subjects?

Oh, and the other thing, Sarah McGurk, is the situation where people bully others deliberately in order to force them out of the job (the boss who doesn't want to fire someone, or the employee who thinks someone is treading on their turf). A few people have recounted stories along those sorts of lines to me before.

[/quote]

You know Arlo, I suspect a lot of the problems come because the managers involved learned to be vets and/or nurses and have to do that as well as manage. And management is as much of a skill as being a vet, but only some people recognise this and work at it and spend time and money learning.

My response here is about communication, but will be mainly based on my own experiences and thoughts about how I feel things could have been handled better. In both cases, the situation was a dynamic. My own behaviour contributed, but I was not wholly to blame. One of them was of the type where I know for a fact that the boss wanted me out. I don't think it was a deliberate campaign, but it was certainly in response to a perception that I didn't fit into the practice and that I was incompetent.

I was also a great deal younger than those who bullied me, and they were in positions of power over me. They were both early in my career.

I'm not an expert in management tools, but I suspect some kind of management training would have helped them to help me. [Perhaps J G Wray could help here. He's mentioned that all his staff are monitored and their performance has an effect on their pay and he's obviously interested in people management.] I suspect such a system could be used or modified to assist new graduates in particular, but it would benefit people at all levels.

My husband works in industry as a manager and everyone at every level is set individual targets. It's a massive job, but it does mean that both manager and employee have some kind of gauge of their own performance, so it isn't wholly based on whether the employee is liked, easy to get on with, or just good at looking busy. It also (hopefully) cuts out the unfair advantage of people who are good at negotiating being paid better than those who work hard, but hate to ask.

One thing I will say is that in the case where I was "managed out", the senior staff were obviously uncomfortable with addressing anything difficult.There was poor communication throughout the practice. The nurses were at loggerheads as well and one of my favourites, who was assertive and relatively mature (she'd returned to nursing after a break) left quite quickly because of the toxic atmosphere.

I've probably mentioned assertiveness training a number of times and that doesn't just help those on the receiving end. My favourite assertiveness book is still this one and it's actually aimed at managers:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Assertiveness-Work-Situations-Professional-Management/dp/0077114280

It is very practical and goes through all kinds of things, from what rights you should afford your employees to how to tell them difficult things in ways that are not accusatory. I've only once put its techniques into practice in a clinic setting. I was working sole charge and two of the other staff fell out over something and I spoke to both and (to my amazement) they resolved the situation.

Those are my initial thoughts. If I think of anything else, I'll come back to it. And it would be helpful if anyone who has managed a practice could offer any tools they had found useful.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Sally Everitt — Sun, 03 Dec 2017 08:50:46 GMT

As the only other person who has read all the responses to the survey I agree with Arlo that the statistics, and even short quotes that we included in the report, do not give the full picture of the distress and suffering felt by the respondents. While some people may consider that they would be able to cope with the behaviours described, and even that those reporting these behaviours are over reacting, there is no doubt in my mind from reading the responses that the majority of respondents were describing real distress.

Is this bullying?

The problem is that that there is no single definition of bullying and there are many different opinions as to what constitutes bullying. The problem with using the term “bullying” in discussion, whether on this forum or in practice, is that people then argue about whether the behaviour that is being described constitutes bullying rather than looking at whether the behaviour is or is not acceptable.

I know Arlo specifically asked in the survey for reports of repeated incidents of behaviour, instigated by the perpetrator, which seem SOLELY DESIGNED to cause physical or emotional hurt, but I think that we have to be very careful in making any judgment about motivation. While there are undoubtedly people, in all walks of life, who intentionally set out to hurt others, far more of us are likely to cause emotional distress unintentionally.

My own opinion is that while the term “bullying” may be a useful shorthand in hypothetical discussions as soon as you are dealing with a real situation the term is both emotive and inflammatory. There were certainly some heartfelt and anguished responses in the survey from those who felt they had been falsely accused of bullying.

Were the results predictable?

To a large extent yes. As others have said an online questionnaire will always attract those who agree with its premise, which is why we have avoided any generalisation / discussion of prevalence based on the results.

The value of the survey is both in providing some data / evidence rather than relying entirely on personal opinion and anecdote and in stimulating discussion about why people are feeling bullied and what can be done to improve the situation.

While individual practices may be quite happy with their own ability to deal with the subjects raised there do seem to be issues at the professional level for both vets and veterinary nurses in terms of mental health, confidence and staff retention. The first step in dealing with these issues will be in acknowledging that they exist.

Are veterinary practices unusual in this respect?

Reports of workplace bullying are widespread, although in many surveys those working in healthcare seem to be more likely to report problems. This is probably as a result of both the (caring) type of people who work in healthcare and the demands of the job.

Are veterinary surgeons – or indeed veterinary nurses – particularly bad at man management? Or would you get a similar percentage response if you surveyed all small to medium enterprises?

There were certainly many reports in the survey of people taking issues to management which were not dealt with well. I realise that those who had their concerns dealt with well may be less likely to report. The main issues reported seemed to be either where there was no-one to go to e.g. where the boss/manager was the source of the grievance or where the manager listened to the grievance but did not actually do anything to improve the situation. It was suggested that in some cases this was because they did not want to upset / lose a longstanding member of staff.

As with other types of complaints many of the people who are raising grievances may not be looking the perpetrator to be punished but for their complaint to be listened to and acknowledged and for the situation to not happen again.

I wonder if as veterinary surgeons we have a tendency to see many problems in terms of making a “diagnosis” and offering a “treatment”/ solution. I am not a manager and hesitate to express any views on this subject, but I wonder if what is needed in terms of “man management” is an approach more akin to parenting, where our role is not always to provide a solution but rather to provide a safe environment in which staff can find their own solutions.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:43:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Are veterinary surgeons – or indeed veterinary nurses – particularly bad at man management? Or would you get a similar percentage response if you surveyed all small to medium enterprises?[/quote]

Who knows? But I wonder if a perfectionist disposition and a high pressure environment might make it harder for the average veterinary surgeon or nurse to be a good man manager.

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The client who doesn't push for things, the client who appreciates when you do something extra for them, the client that says thank you, they're the ones that I'll go out of my way for.[/quote]

Isn't the word 'client' interchangeable with 'boss' in that sentence (your description fits the one person I worked for who I would have followed off a cliff face if she asked).

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]Generally, the aggressive get what they want, so they don’t seek help. It’s those who are passive who do. They tend to end up on the receiving end of bullying when they end up working with aggressive people. It’s a dynamic, rather than the fault lying all on one side, at least that is my experience of it.[/quote]

[quote user="Sarah McGurk"]The responses here are useful too. It strikes me that the best way forward is to create resources that are readily available for those people to tap into. You will never persuade the aggressive to moderate their behaviour, so those who are too passive need ideally to modify their behaviour to more assertive patterns. [/quote]

This seems to make a lot of sense to me, Sarah, although I think there is another factor that is crucial in all of this, and which is perhaps not dependent on personality type. It is:

Good communication / aka 'talking about it'.

For example, colleague A has appalling hallitosis. Colleague B is too embarrassed to say something, so they avoid working with colleague B, and take the piss out of them behind their back.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Sarah McGurk — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 10:16:18 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

We were discussing this in terms of client behaviour and our response to it at work a few days ago. My feeling was that clients who are pushy and demanding, and could sometimes be considered aggressive, don't get the best out of us. They get good treatment as everyone does, but they are not the clients I am going to go out of my way to help, they're not the clients I'm going to fit in for an appointment before the start of a consulting session, or make an effort to get their repeat prescription done early, pick up the phone and call to check how they're pet's getting on. The client who doesn't push for things, the client who appreciates when you do something extra for them, the client that says thank you, they're the ones that I'll go out of my way for.

[/quote]That is absolutely true, but is the aggressive client aware that you would put yourselves out more for someone else? As you’ve said, they get good treatment. They are, by and large, getting what they want. There is nothing in that scenario to cause them to question their behaviour or cause them to seek help.

In other practices, they may get better treatment through being pushy. They may well decide they don’t like your practice and find another where the staff are not empowered to be so assertive.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 09:17:26 GMT

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Sarah McGurk — Sat, 02 Dec 2017 07:03:54 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]You might think so, but then why so many reports of it going on?[/quote]

Are veterinary surgeons – or indeed veterinary nurses – particularly bad at man management? Or would you get a similar percentage response if you surveyed all small to medium enterprises?

[/quote]I should imagine there are a fair number of vets who are high achieving perfectionists, as Arlo has already mentioned. If they demand the same standards from their staff, it could make them hard to work for, but I suspect you’d find similar responses from all walks of life. It is part of the human condition. Perhaps though, it’s doubly important in our profession due to the painfully high rates of suicide.

I find some of the comments here difficult. I agree, to an extent, that some people are more likely to become victims. I don’t think that means their experiences should be dismissed. Just as there are some people who are very passive (avoid conflict, lacking self-respect) there are also those who are more aggressive. They are equally (at least) at fault here, but don’t suffer in the same way.

Generally, the aggressive get what they want, so they don’t seek help. It’s those who are passive who do. They tend to end up on the receiving end of bullying when they end up working with aggressive people. It’s a dynamic, rather than the fault lying all on one side, at least that is my experience of it.

I suspect some of those commenting here may be naturally assertive. If you have high levels of self-respect and have never been afraid to stand up for yourself, perhaps it is difficult to understand this dynamic. If you are assertive, there is a tendency for others to respond in kind. Assertiveness breeds assertiveness in others.

Martin, your accounts from your practice suggest to me that you are naturally assertive. You even say some of your staff went away and came back. There will be others in those bad practices who were suffering, but didn’t have that escape route. Arlo wants to help them. Why would that be a bad thing?

What is quite sad is that aggressiveness is seen in our society as a positive and thus more likely to be tolerated or even encouraged, while those who are passive are dismissed as weak and pathetic. They are not. They are people in pain who need help in finding better strategies to get them through life.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:29:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]You might think so, but then why so many reports of it going on?[/quote]

Are veterinary surgeons – or indeed veterinary nurses – particularly bad at man management? Or would you get a similar percentage response if you surveyed all small to medium enterprises?

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 10:21:42 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I wasn't having a pop at you Martin.[/quote]I know, even though there was a tone of 'you might be deluded' in there. And maybe I am.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:44:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Just for the record[/quote]

I wasn't having a pop at you Martin.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:34:25 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I worked somewhere once where the morale was pretty low. Nurses were employed young and impressionable, were not given the opportunity to train, and were generally treated as glorified cleaners. They hung around for years, which even surprised me at the time. Looking back, I suspect they simply didn't feel good enough to get a job elsewhere.

Compare that to a practice that takes on an unqualified or inexperienced employee. They treat them well, train them and develop their wings. After a couple of years they fly the nest to broaden their experience and sometimes 'go it alone'. [/quote]

Just for the record, the nurses who have stayed the longest are those who had previously worked in other practices and experienced poor practice management/clinical judgement or qualified and came back. One who qualified and did leave went on to become president of the BVNA and credited me with instilling in her all her core values. There are some who left because they felt we couldn't provide them with the career progression they wanted or just didn't fit but they've generally remained friends. There have been some bad eggs and some who mistakenly thought they were too good who left early - they've rarely prospered anywhere else. Overall I don't think I done too bad a job.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:12:17 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Sad world if it needs to be said.[/quote]It is a sad world Evelyn, however much you'd like it to be otherwise. Every time I see or hear an emergency services vehicles I think if only people were more careful and kept themselves fitter and healthier they wouldn't have accidents or set fire to things or get ill and wouldn't need ambulances or the fire brigade, and if only people were honest we wouldn't need the police. If only people treated others as they would like to be treated themselves we wouldn't be having this debate. Sadly human nature doesn't work that way.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:07:52 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I don't think I'm a bad employer, the fact that most of my nurses stay for many years[/quote]

There are two possibilities at play here though...and I am not in any way judging your practice Martin....I don't know it all all.

Which practice treats their staff well? Which has the worst record in staff turnover???

I agree that a low staff turnover can certainly indicate a happy practice...I was proud of ours. However, I am equally proud of the 13 RVNs and 3 new grad vets we trained that have moved on. The fact that two of those vets now already run their own practices is wonderful. I'm not taking the credit for their hard work, but I would like to think that we helped them build the confidence that took!

Anyway, I also think that whilst the survey obviously has flaws, it is a valid tool and certainly a good jumping off point for discussion in practice. Ian and I made management mistakes, and in hindsight I wish I had used some system of feedback directly from my staff to learn how to do things better. The system we had involved going through their line manager...which has one obvious flaw!

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Julie Innes — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:00:08 GMT

Re: shouting and screaming and throwing things- I have seen this a few times in practice. It was never directed AT me, more the result of stressed out vets, but still not pleasant to be around. The first time I was a student, working alongside a very angry vet (who yelled at me and kicked in all the cupboard doors when an op didn't go as planned!). The second time I was a few years qualified and the vet in question was of similar age. On that occasion I told him/ her in no uncertain terms that it was inappropriate and making everyone feel awkward. I'm sure there was no malice intended on either occasion, but it wasn't pleasant.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]This is just basic man management (am I allowed to say that? )

Or stating the bleedin' obvious.[/quote] You might think so, but then why so many reports of it going on?

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]As to the rest of the reported behaviours ... like shouting and screaming, physical intimidation, throwing things at people, sabotaging work, malicious accusations ... is there much discussion to be had other than saying perhaps it needs to be made clear that this sort of thing is not acceptable in your practice?[/quote]

Sad world if it needs to be said.[/quote]

Same again. 649 reports of these things.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:12:41 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

a) Avoiding giving people a ticking off or belittling them in front of their peers. Sure, tear strips off them in private.

b) Reserving criticism for the things that really matter (and I would say: "balancing with praise")

c) Being careful when countermanding someone else. It's inevitable this is going to happen. I don't think most people mind if it is explained why.

d) Not discussing staff negatively behind their backs (of course management need to discuss positive and negative things about members of the team, it's when comments are made by senior staff to other more junior members, for example).

e) Not excluding individuals

.. oh, and I'd add, adopting a 'listening management style' (so many reported that their concerns were dismissed or not taken seriously, or worse still, reporting them made things worse).

[/quote]

This is just basic man management (am I allowed to say that? )

Or stating the bleedin' obvious.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]As to the rest of the reported behaviours ... like shouting and screaming, physical intimidation, throwing things at people, sabotaging work, malicious accusations ... is there much discussion to be had other than saying perhaps it needs to be made clear that this sort of thing is not acceptable in your practice?[/quote]

Sad world if it needs to be said.

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:27:09 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Anyway, the other point I wanted to make is that you (anyone) can dismiss my survey as unscientific.[/quote]

Now now, remember how you castigate people for extrapolating...[/quote]

Reason I put (anyone) in brackets was to clarify I didn't mean you you. Just 'people' can dismiss ...

That applies to the rest of the comments you quoted me on.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

For some, persuasion comes with good quality evidence .[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Still, would you not agree that the behaviours being reported are, in the main, things it is a good idea to think about and discuss in practice, because reducing them intuitively leads to a more harmonious atmosphere[/quote]

Ah, the nonne form. in reply - up to a point, because I can see the value of Stoicism.[/quote]

And I am absolutely with you on that too. I think we agree it's a balance of more resilience coupled with a greater awareness of the impact of people's behaviour on others.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]b) Reserving criticism for the things that really matter[/quote]

Things that really matter, hmmmm, now that's really subjective.[/quote]

Yes, isn't it just. I think probably the best one can hope for is just a greater awareness amongst perfectionists of how soul-destroying incessant criticism of minute detail can be, especially when not balanced with a little praise for the things that the person DID get right! It's something I am trying to put into practice myself - damn it's difficult

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

J G Wray — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:40:59 GMT

Cursor jumping around again

In respect of work that matters, that is Urgent and Important, well, for the originator of a question for instance it has both Urgency and Importance. For the receiver it may be something else entirely. This mismatch can bring about unhappiness in the Originator when the Receiver applies their filter. Would you like some examples from practice?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Not excluding individuals[/quote]

I think we gave you our first feedback on this

This has already been modelled in management practice and one example is the Line of Personal Responsibility, where co -workers are empowered to articulate below the line behaviour

Here is an example I've mentioned before

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+line+of+personal+responsibility+youtube&qpvt=the+line+of+personal+responsibility+youtube&view=detail&mid=A8F06A352DD6818B237AA8F06A352DD6818B237A&FORM=VRDGAR

RE: Behaviour in the veterinary workplace

J G Wray — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:33:22 GMT

There is a peculiar thing that happens sometimes when replying to a thread, where the keyboard input suddenly types right to left and the cursor jumps, so I've spread this reply across two entries

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]b) Reserving criticism for the things that really matter[/quote]

Things that really matter, hmmmm, now that's really subjective. We have a discussion at work which divides all work into into Urgent and Important and therefore also work that is not urgent and not Important.